Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby David Thompson » 31 May 2017 15:04

Everybody. Drop the personal remarks.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 01 Jun 2017 22:06

Sergey Romanov has claimed to have proven that the NYT doctored the Signal Corps photo. I disagree entirely, but if he is right, here are the men who would have been responsible:

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Lester Markel, editor of Sunday NYT for four decades [won the Pulitzer Prize for Journalism in 1953]

Daniel Schwarz, assistant editor of the Sunday NYT [worked for the paper from 1929 - 1973]:
NYT obituary for Schwarz wrote:In February 1939, he was put in charge of magazine layout, and six months later became Sunday picture editor. Within three months, he was named an assistant to Mr. Markel.


The Art & Reproduction Department was responsible for cropping and retouching photographs, but they of course would have only doctored the photo on the order of Markel or Schwarz.

Here, pictured in 1942, is one of Romanov's suspects for having done the actual doctoring:

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Art department of the New York Times newspaper. Photo retoucher touching up a fashion photograph for Sunday paper

http://flashbak.com/a-day-in-the-life-of-the-new-york-times-september-10-1942-379759/

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 02 Jun 2017 01:15

This gentlemen is another implicated in Romanov's conspiracy theory.

Victor W. Talley, Sunday Department Picture Editor.

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Obituary in the NYT 18 February 1973

Talley's assistant picture editors in the Sunday Department were Florette Robinson and Emma Little.

[The New York Times] Sunday Department

LESTER MARKEL. Editor
W. B. HAYWARD, Assistant Editor
E. FRANCIS BROWN, Assistant Editor
DANIEL SCHWARZ, Assistant Editor
DIANA RICE, Resort Editor
H. I. BROCK, Writer
L. H. ROBBINS, Writer
P. W. WILSON, Writer
EDITH EFRON, Writer
CHARLES B. PALMER, Writer
JOHN DESMOND, Rewrite
ALLAN TAYLOR, Rewrite
SEYMOUR NAGAN, Rewrite
GERTUDE SAMUELS, Rewrite
JANE KRIEGER, Rewrite
VICTOR W. TALLEY, Picture Editor
FLORETTE ROBINSON, Asst. Pict. Ed.
EMMA LITTLE, Asst. Pict. Ed.

- The Working Press of New York City, New York: Tom Farrell, 1945, p.38.


Assistant Editor E. Francis Brown was a trained historian who controlled the "Week in Review" section. He left the NYT in 1945 to edit Time magazine before rejoining in 1949 as editor of the "Book Review" section. Unlike Schwarz, Brown had no experience as picture editor and may not have even been with the Sunday Times when the alleged deed was done; I think Romanov can rule out Brown from involvement in his conspiracy theory.
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/18/arts/francis-brown91-for-22-years-editor-of-the-times-book-review.html

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 02 Jun 2017 20:36

Interesting how loony conspiracy theorists in general (not necessarily meaning anyone specifically) can't answer simple questions, such as why the NYTM photo is missing a bank post or why there is a clearly visible gray smudge (not mere lack of details) on the MM photo.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 02 Jun 2017 22:33

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The final Assistant Editor at the Sunday Times to be addressed is Walter Brownell Hayward [1878-1957], who worked for the paper between 1915-1917 and 1924 to 1948.

Judging by his obituary [NYT 17.04.57], Hayward appears to have been the news editor when the alleged photo doctoring occurred.

I believe Hayward can probably be ruled out of involvement in Romanov's conspiracy theory. What do you think Sergey?

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby Michael Kenny » 02 Jun 2017 23:26

Sergey Romanov wrote:Interesting how loony conspiracy theorists in general (not necessarily meaning anyone specifically) can't answer simple questions, such as why the NYTM photo is missing a bank post or why there is a clearly visible gray smudge (not mere lack of details) on the MM photo.

Stop biting and leave the obsessives to ramble.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 03 Jun 2017 03:16

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Footage from here.

Brigadier General Julius Ochs Adler, U.S. Army (Ret.), the Vice President and General Manager of The New York Times, was one of 18 American newspaper/magazine proprietors and editors that travelled to Germany following General Eisenhower's 19 April 1945 suggestion to Congress that politicians and newspaper editors see the horrors of the camps with their own eyes [pdf p.3].

The newspaper men visited Buchenwald on the 25 and 26 of April, and an article about Buchenwald written by Alder, dated the 26th, appeared in the NYT on Saturday 28 April 1945.

The following day, the Sunday edition of NYT featured the Buchenwald photo for the first time, in a heavily cropped format.

On Wednesday, 3 May, the newspaper men visited Dachau.

On Friday, 5 May, the War Department in Washington released a statement written by the 18 newspaper men on which Adler was the lead signatory. It reads in part:
We have visited and spent considerable time investigating the prison camps at Buchenwald and Dachau. We have interviewed recently freed political prisoners, slave laborers and civilians of many nationalities. We have studied a great mass of documents covering the German occupation of France which contained photographic evidence and testimony taken in many places and painstakingly authenticated with the sworn statements of witnesses and victims.

The conclusion is inescapable that the Nazis had a master plan for their political prison camps. That plan was based upon a policy of calculated and organized brutality. The evidence we have seen is not a mere assembling of local or unassociated incidents. It is convincing proof that brutality was the basic Nazi system and method.


This statement was read into the Congressional Record by Representative Edith Rogers on 15 May 1945 [79th Congress, Vol. 91, Pt. 11].

It was also published on page 8 of Section 1 of the Sunday NYT on 6 May 1945—the very same edition in which the editors published [Section 6, p.42] the Buchenwald photo after having allegedly doctored it to remove Simon Toncman!

NYT 6.5.45.png
enlarged version


So, the chiefs of the NYT Sunday Department published an [unnecessarily] doctored US Army photo taken in a concentration camp whilst simultaneously publishing a War Department statement signed by their boss [a recently retired US Army Brigadier general] in which he [and other very influential people] testified to the authenticity of the evidence of nazi crimes at the same concentration camp.

An even more ridiculous feature of the Romanov CT is exposed by the fact that the statement was issued at the conclusion of part of an exercise the brainchild of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Forces in Europe; Eisenhower believed US and UK citizens would have the facts of the horrors of the camps hammered-home by the politicians and newspaper people who had seen it for themselves: "Such a visit will show them without any trace of doubt the full evidence of the cruelty practiced by the Nazis in such places as normal procedure."

The Romanov conspiracy theory entailed either Lester Markel, Daniel Schwarz, or Victor W. Talley, or any combination of the three, having taken the decision to risk ridiculing the claims of their boss, General Eisenhower, the US Army et al., and risk their own careers, by publishing an elaborately doctored photo when they could have chosen to simply crop it [like they did with the same photo the previous week] without any risk whatsoever.
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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 03 Jun 2017 08:39

Michael Kenny wrote:Stop biting and leave the obsessives to ramble.

That's probably for the best. Everyone sees the usual suspects are unable to deal with the conclusive evidence of the retouching by the NYTM (such as the missing bank post) and on the cover of MM's book (such as the visible gray smudge, not mere bad quality or lack of detail) and are reduced to spamming irrelevant trivia to mask the failure of their crazy and absurd conspiracy theory. I've seen this m.o. from the usual suspects elsewhere.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 03 Jun 2017 14:55

Perhaps the Sunday Dept's editors doctored the photo for irony's sake? :roll:

Before our invasion of Germany we had all heard stories of atrocities in German concentration camps and most of us had depreciated them as touched up by propaganda. [...]

Writers have tried to describe these things, but words cannot describe them and, even if they could, there are details too filthy to be printed anywhere. Photographers have sent pictures so horrible that no newspaper normally would use them, [...]

It is well that the stories be told and retold, however unpleasant they are, and that the photographs be seen by all the world. The world must know and it must not forget.
- "The World Must Not Forget" by Harold Denny "With American Forces in Germany (By Wireless)", New York Times Magazine, 6 May 1945, p.8 [continues pp. 42-43]
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/teachers/archival/19450506notforget.pdf

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 03 Jun 2017 21:27

Click any image to enlarge

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Yes, I have two copies of this magazine. All photos that I have previous posted of this magazine were photos of the one on the right. Until now, I have never posted any pictures of the one on the left. But you can clearly see that it isn't as well preserved as the first copy I brought.



Image

The photo in the more deteriorated magazine is far darker; the woman's right foot and a table leg are indistinguishable from the shadow thrown by the table.



Image

There's a distinct difference in the quality of these pictures. But both have deteriorated over their 72 years.

As for your smoking-gun "missing post-foot": Over the decades the similarly dark colours of the wooden post, the floor, and the shadow thrown by the shelf, have blended as the paper and ink naturally degraded. The foot is not now distinguishable, but you are wrong to insist that it was never there, and wrong to think that this image wouldn't have altered since 1945.



Image

As for MM: I've been posting massive hi-res pics of my copies his books for 4 years. So I know that that print has been tampered with. I only brought him up on HC to see if you'd blame him.

MM probably dun did it, although that print may have a far more interesting story considering he was collecting Holocaust related items since the '60s on his frequent jaunts to Europe. You should watch his USC Shoah interview, his home is a museum.

MM—who was savvy customer in his day—opted to use a Toncman-crudely-deleted version on his book because he believed it was closer to the original photo. He must have known of the NYTM version, maybe others we are unaware of.

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Re: Are any of the allegations that some Holocaust photos are frauds true?

Postby Sergey Romanov » 03 Jun 2017 23:46

> As for your smoking-gun "missing post-foot": Over the decades the similarly dark colours of the wooden post, the floor, and the shadow thrown by the shelf, have blended as the paper and ink naturally degraded.

Actually it would have been visible just as the other wooden posts. It is very obviously not there.

Fail.

> So I know that that print has been tampered with. I only brought him up on HC to see if you'd blame him.

LOL no you totally claimed something very different, incl. up to a few days ago, since the MM cover has been an integral part of your argument as to how improbable it was that it would have been tampered with two times independently.

To wit:

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 5281268733
"And that it's simply a coincidence that MM doctored it in the same manner as had been done by the NYTM 34 years earlier?"

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 5805097584
"Then, 34 years later, MM's "publisher" had the photo doctored in precisely the same way but this time it was because he, and perhaps MM, thought the presence of ST distracted from the young MM peaking over the edge of the top bunk.

LMFAO"

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... 9958956093
"Your theory is that unnamed persons conspired to doctor the photo, not once but twice, completely independently and for totally different reasons."
"The alleged motives of your conspirators are absurd; you don't have a scrap of evidence to support either of your CTs"

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 7749007800
"Then, 34 years later, by sheer coincidence, Mel Mermelstein did precisely the same thing, for similar reasons, so he could publish a *sanitised* version on the cover of his self-published memoirs. But kinda shot himself in the foot by publishing the Toncman-present version inside this book!"

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 5856483279
"But the evolution of your theory from the photo was doctored once [NYT] to it was doctored twice [NYT & MM] has been noted, and laughed at."

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 9386411707
"I have demonstrated that the "original" is manipulated to a higher standard than your have been content to settle on for your claims about the NYTM & MM versions."

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 8924731916
"We have no idea how or when MM came to be in possession of the photograph he eventually published on the cover of his book. Claiming that smudge makes it a "fact" that he doctored the photo is ridiculous in the extreme. It's a pity he's not 30yrs younger, with his penchant for litigation he'd probably instigate legal proceedings against this blog for defamation!"

viewtopic.php?p=2080355#p2080355
"I don't think you fully appreciate the utter ridiculousness of the [completely unevidenced] theories that the NYT and Mel Mermelstein doctored the same photo, in the same way, 34 years apart, and for totally different reasons!"

But oh my, how you have changed your tune now:

"MM probably dun did it"

So you now accept something you have just a short time ago called a CT and clearly rejected, without even admitting you were wrong and pretending that it has been your intent all along. Ministry of Truth indeed. We have always been at war with Eastasia. ROTFL.


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