Dresden, 1945

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histan
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 02 Aug 2017 20:07

Hi markh

There seems to be no record that the RAF used "Napalm". The figures given by Taylor are taken from the detailed squadron records that show each aircraft and its bomb load, see the example given below:
Dresden Bomb Load.jpg
You can see the bomb types are those identified in the detailed post by StrangerHereMyself.

Regards

John
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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 03 Aug 2017 00:24

markh wrote:Just a quick question, Victor Gregg, a British POW held in Dresden when the attack took place, states that incendiary bombs with "jelly like stuff" stuck to men, who consequently burned to death; the jelly like stuff could not be extinguished. Presumably he is referring to Napalm, so my question is, what Napalm bombs did the British use during WW2, and were they used against Dresden? Would such a weapon be used against civilians? Surely not?
No napalm, but phosphorus bombs which are worse.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Aug 2017 10:15

Hi David,

As a matter of interest, why is phosphorous "worse"?

White phosphorous was legal as a target smoke marker until at least the 1970s when I was in Rhodesia.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 Aug 2017 18:13

Well, phosphorus is known to be worse, because it can not be extinguish. Once it has touched you or your clothes you are dead or at the best atrociously mutilated. Napalm gives instant death, which can be seen as less cruel.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by StrangerHereMyself » 05 Aug 2017 20:45

Neither phosphorus nor napalm appear to have been employed by either the RAF or USAAF at Dresden (see my earlier post and histan’s above), so should probably create a separate thread for discussing that topic.

(As for ‘phosphorus is known to be worse’, it rather depends on how ‘switched on’ a victim’s companions are: it’s treatable—immerse the affected parts in water and remove the WP particles with an implement of some sort. Not that I would wish to be anywhere near an exploding WP munition; but then I wouldn’t wish to be on the wrong end of a sucking chest wound courtesy of Hague/Geneva-approved ball ammunition either.)

Note, as Sid wrote in an earlier post, napalm (and WP) was just another weapon at the time; and it took until 1980 to come up with the ‘Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III)’ (so far ratified by 114 out of 196 countries) and its prohibitions against using incendiary weapons against civilians or even (Article 2.2) ‘any military objective located within a concentration of civilians’. (At risk of going off-topic, does this protocol abrogate Article 28 of the 1949 ‘Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War’: ‘The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.’?
Edited to add: I suppose only to the extent of not using incendiary munitions—other munitions would be legal.)
Last edited by StrangerHereMyself on 05 Aug 2017 23:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Annelie
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Annelie » 05 Aug 2017 21:14

http://www.iraqwar.org/chemical.htm
Bomber" Sir Arthur Harris, the British commander noted below, is now blamed by civilian authorities as the commander responsable for ordering the the phosphorus fire bombing of Dresden. From 150,000 to 250,000 refugees, mainly women, children and old men fleeing the invading Russian Army, some 80 miles away, were immolated some two months before the end of the Second World War. These were far more deaths than at Hiroshima (80,000) or Nagasaki. The raids were carried out by British bombers, together with the United States 8th Air Force, first with explosive bombs to break open the roof tops of buildings. and followed with phosphorous bombs to successfully set off a (planned) devastating firestorm.

While the use of poison gas is now "outlawed" by the Geneva convention, the oft repeated accusation that Saddam gassed his own people neglects an important fact. Halabaja, the town where it took place, was at the time occupied by invading Iranian forces, and, according to MSNBC Internet Home News, hundreds of Iranians and civilians were killed. Now, this theory is under revision, see Jude Wanniski's criticism . Judging from all the lies promulgated about Iraq, his study is very revealing. Article follows:---------
there seems to be mention of phosphorus being used during WWII

Many incendiary weapons developed and deployed during World War II were in the form of bombs and shells whose main incendiary component is white phosphorus (WP), and can be used in an offensive anti-personnel role against enemy troop concentrations, but WP is also used for signaling, smoke screens, and target-marking purposes. The U.S. Army and Marines used WP extensively in World War II and Korea for all three purposes, frequently using WP shells in large 4.2-inch chemical mortars. WP was widely credited by many Allied soldiers for breaking up numerous German infantry attacks and creating havoc among enemy troop concentrations during the latter part of World War II. In both World War II and Korea, WP was found particularly useful in overcoming enemy human wave attacks.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_device

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by StrangerHereMyself » 05 Aug 2017 23:11

“““““““““““““““““““Wikipedia”””””””””””””””””””
And an anti-war website run by an entity called “““““Americans Against World Empire”””””…
versus
Royal Air Force squadron records.
’kay.
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Annelie
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Annelie » 06 Aug 2017 00:20

This topic was discussed at great lengths at this forum
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=9339

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 Aug 2017 08:55

USAF used Napalm, RAF used phosporus bombs at Dresden.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 06 Aug 2017 10:21

Hi DavidFrankenberg

"USAF used Napalm, RAF used phosporus bombs at Dresden."

Sources please.

Regards

John

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 06 Aug 2017 11:05

Hi, DavidFrankenberg
There was no use of napalm or phosphorus bombs but nearly 4,000 tons of high-explosive and incendiary bombs on the city in four successive raids. A firestorm was made whith those bombings.
https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/ ... ng/385445/
Regards from Belgium
Prosper :wink: :wink:

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Annelie
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Annelie » 06 Aug 2017 13:44

http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-gb/bro ... ?aid=14627


Firestorm



One tactic used by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force was the creation of firestorms. This was achieved by dropping incendiary bombs, filled with highly combustible chemicals such as magnesium, phosphorus or petroleum jelly (napalm), in clusters over a specific target. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area, become extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.
How is it that it has been mentioned in sites that there was use of phosphorus in the bombs, in the incendiary bombs?

Is this not considered using?

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by histan » 06 Aug 2017 14:16

Hi Annelie

The UK used two main incendiary bombs:
The 4 lb incendiary bomb which contained magnesium
The 30lb incendiary bomb which contained phosphorous

If you look at the weapon types given by Taylor, and quoted in the above post by StrangerHereMyself, you will see that only the 4 lb incendiary bomb, containing magnesium, is listed as being used against Dresden.

Regards

John

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Annelie
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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by Annelie » 06 Aug 2017 14:21

thanks for explaining John.

There was an military (for military) site that gave lots of details on the Dresden bombing but no
longer able to find.

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Re: Dresden, 1945

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 Aug 2017 21:39

Such a huge fire that burnt Dresden is only explainable by the use of such weapons (napalm and phosphorus) : it was the tactic of the "fire storm" which means winds of flames to a speed of 300km/h.

The question is now : why democratic countries like UK and US used such horrible weapons whereas the war was over and there were absolutely no need of
Dresden bombing, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was a warning launched towards the Soviets : "that's what we can do". A prelude to the Cold War.
histan wrote:Hi DavidFrankenberg

"USAF used Napalm, RAF used phosporus bombs at Dresden."

Sources please.

Regards

John
A univeristy professor explained me that during a lesson on the Fire of Rome of 64. We find a fire storm in Rome in 64 because the city buildings was composed mostly of wood. But Dresden as mostly composed of stone. He talked about phosphorus and napalm bombs used by the USAF and RAF.

The fire storm phenomenon you can find also in Tokyo bombing of march 1945. Tokyo, like Rome in 64, was composed of most of paper and wood buildings.

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