Questions about Stalingrad

[DavidFrankenberg]

Do you think Germans could afford feeding soviet POWS since they had huge difficulties to feed themselves ?

Not really much. See the known story of Dulag-205. There were several thousand prisoners in POWs camps located inside the pocket who suffered severe malnutrition.

Would you count them as "rations" then ? I wd not.
By the way, do you have numbers of POW in the pocket ? They didnt seem to take prisoners at this time.

Well, generally speaking the ration strength (just as well as Kopfstärke) could include: non military attachments, manpower from other military organizations, sick and wounded, as well as PoWs.

Thank you for the correction. But, concerning the "rations", i have read that this system is not very accurate to estimate the true number of german soldiers alive since many Germans didnt declare when a comrade died in order to keep on receiving his ration during the siege.
There was a croatian unit too in the pocket. That's why croatian hymn was played on radio after the surrending.

Well, what you want is Tagesstärke, daily strength, with all momentarily available servicemen of the unit, which would be generally about <41% of ration strength. Then follows "Kampf-" and "Gefechtsstärke", combat and front strenghts of units.

Do you have sources that deal with Pows in the pocket ? I guess some of them would be recuited as Hiwis... if they were Volkdeutsche or antisoviet, but im not even sure about that. It didnt seem that the Germans took prisoners in the pocket. Would they mind about feeding pows since they could not manage to feed themselves ?

[Art]

Would you count them as "rations" then ? I wd not.

As follows from reporting practice before the encirclement of the 6 Army the ration strength explicitly included such category as "Hiwis and prisoners of war". See an example here:
/viewtopic.php?p=1455889#p1455889
So there is a chance a ration strength in the pocket was reported according to a usual procedure which included POWs in the"Hiwis" part. But again - I don't know how it was in reality, it's just a question I haven't seen answer to.

By the way, do you have numbers of POW in the pocket ? They didnt seem to take prisoners at this time.

I have only superficial knowledge here. Common numbers are several thousand (4-5-6) in Dulag 205 at Alekseyevka of which thousands died of hunger. I suppose, most were taken before 19.11.

[Art]

From the war diary of the 6 AOK, 17.10.42:

Beginning from 13.9 (start of offensive in Stalingrad) to 16.10 the Army captured 17 917 prisoners, destroyed or knocked out 233 tanks, captured and destroyed 302 guns.
In heavy defense fighting on the northern front during the same period 5 625 prisoners were captured, 616 tanks - destroyed or knocked out, 87 guns of all types - destroyed or captured.
Beginning from 13.9 fighters shot down in the Stalingrad area more than 670 enemy airplanes, flak or ground troops shot down further 88.
Own losses in Stalingrad during the same period made:
Killed in action - 69 officers, 2438 other ranks
Wounded - 271 officers, 10 107 other ranks
Missing in action - 3 officers, 298 other ranks

From the day of the Don crossing 21.8 the Army in attack and defense captured 57 800 prisoners, destroyed and knocked out 1950 tanks, captured or destroyed 805 guns of all types, drowned 10 gunboats and 14 other vessels on Volga.
The air force during the same period shot down more than 1700 enemy airplanes, flak and ground troops - further 269.
Own losses of the army beginning from 21.8 were:
Killed - 239 officers, 7456 other ranks
Wounded - 821 officers, 30 360 other ranks
Missing in action - 8 officers, 1127 other ranks.

For comparison a later report from the 6 Army (16.11.42):

From 22.8.42 in the battle between Don and Volga 65 170 prisoners were taken, 2047 tanks, 907 guns, 15 gunboats and 28 other ships destroyed. Own losses:
Northern front between Don and Volga from 13.9 to 14.11.42:
Officers - 56 killed, 172 wounded, 2 missing in action.
NCOs and privates - 2481 killed, 8988 wounded, 340 missing
Total 12 039 men

Offensive in Stalingrad:
Officers - 136 killed, 502 wounded, 5 missing
NCOs and privates - 4800 killed, 20 651 wounded, 734 missing
Total 26 828 men

Total losses:
Officers - 192 killed, 674 wounded, 7 missing
NCOs and privates - 7281 killed, 11 039 (sic!) wounded, 1074 missing
All ranks - 38 867
https://nordrigel.livejournal.com/52303.html

[Stiltzkin]

Do you have sources that deal with Pows in the pocket ? I guess some of them would be recuited as Hiwis... if they were Volkdeutsche or antisoviet, but im not even sure about that. It didnt seem that the Germans took prisoners in the pocket. Would they mind about feeding pows since they could not manage to feed themselves ?

I only have individual numbers for non combat and Hiwi attachments to each individual Division of 6th Army, no information on PoWs there, only from the Diary and a later compiled report as was already posted above.

[DavidFrankenberg]

Thanks Art and Stiltzkin.

The fact that we have no number for pows after 19.11, does it not indicate that there were no pows taken after that date ?

Dulag 205 Alekseyeva contained 3.400 pows on 10 acres ;

Several dozen dropped dead of starvation, overwork, and summary execution each day thence until the merciful end. When the Red Army finally took control of the camp on Jan. 22, 1943, it discovered corpses with obvious signs of cannibalism.

cf http://www.executedtoday.com/2013/10/13 ... dulag-205/ more information in Frank Ellis , “Dulag-205: The German Army’s Death Camp for Soviet Prisoners at Stalingrad” Journal of Slavic Military Studies, March 2006
But despite bad treatment, some Pows survived :

“The guards were allowed to shoot without any warning at prisoners who approached the barbed wire barrier, who tried to jump the queue for food and at prisoners who tried to have a piss in the wrong place,” one POW told his Soviet interrogators. “Hardly any water or bread was given to the prisoners. The prisoners slept in the dugouts without any bedding, jammed tight. The prisoners were never able to rest since they had to sleep standing and sitting. … There were no baths in the camp. During my whole time in the camp — about 5 months — I did not wash once.”

So it seems that Germans did feed them : this guy survived 5 months in the camp. That means he was captured before the 19.11.

[FORBIN Yves]

I have do Advanced search and i don't find have we please a topic for Fall Blau especialy, ORBAT, units strength etc... and i search number of tanks for 22th Pz including Uranus Operation, thanks.

I have find numbers for 22th Pz
8 august rattached to AG B about 100 Pz a majority of Pz38t, a part 26 Pz38t( II/204 Pz Bn ) transfered end august to the new 27th Pz Div, Brigade for size only a PG Rgt.

For the 3 Pz to Stalingrad the 19/11 i have 31 - 55 Pz operationnals surely about at less 30 % in more in maintenance for me the 24th have a total of 100, if some have more,

Panzertrupen Vol 2 book only ops Pz mentionned if some have the total ops and no ops ... for other mech units also, thanks.

AG B (-) around Stalingrad/Don 6A, 4PZA, 48 PZK/GA B

Units Total Pz OPS Pz IV 75L Pz IV 75c Pz III 75c Pz III 50L Pz III 50c Pz II Pz Cdt
XX
14Pz 41 6 1 7 21 1 5
XX
16 31 9 1 21 0
XX
24 55 12 5 5 17 9 5 2
XX
3 32 4 3 22 3 0
XX
60 21 3 2 12 4 0
XX
29 59 18 9 23 7 2
XX
16 43 11 7 16 8 1
XX
22 40 10 1 10 12 2 5Pz 38t
total 104 ? whose about 40 Pz 38t ?
XX Pz 38t
27 65 5 2 12 10 5 9 22

177 St Abt
11 Stug ops

244 St Abt
20 Stug ops

245 St Abt
2 Stug ops

1 Rom AD
105 Tanks :
84 Pz 35T
11 Pz IV 75/24
10 Pz III 75/24

Rfts

Total Pz Pz IV 75L Pz IV 75c Pz III 50L Pz III 50c Pz II Pz Cdt
XX
11 75 6 49 9 11 au 18/11
XX
6 159 24 32 73 21 9
XX
17 60 18 30 9 3
XX
23 97 26 12 26 18 13 2
II
228 31 31 Stug

[Art]

From the war diary of the 6 AOK, 17.10.42:

Beginning from 13.9 (start of offensive in Stalingrad) to 16.10 the Army captured 17 917 prisoners, destroyed or knocked out 233 tanks, captured and destroyed 302 guns.
In heavy defense fighting on the northern front during the same period 5 625 prisoners were captured, 616 tanks - destroyed or knocked out, 87 guns of all types - destroyed or captured.
Beginning from 13.9 fighters shot down in the Stalingrad area more than 670 enemy airplanes, flak or ground troops shot down further 88.
Own losses in Stalingrad during the same period made:
Killed in action - 69 officers, 2438 other ranks
Wounded - 271 officers, 10 107 other ranks
Missing in action - 3 officers, 298 other ranks

Own losses:
Northern front between Don and Volga from 13.9 to 14.11.42:
Officers - 56 killed, 172 wounded, 2 missing in action.
NCOs and privates - 2481 killed, 8988 wounded, 340 missing
Total 12 039 men

Offensive in Stalingrad:
Officers - 136 killed, 502 wounded, 5 missing
NCOs and privates - 4800 killed, 20 651 wounded, 734 missing
Total 26 828 men

For comparison casualties of the Soviet 62 Army were (battle and non-battle combined):
September 1941 - 54 624 men, incl. 8 935 killed, 20 258 missing and 218 captured
October 1941 - 34 881 men, incl. 6 741 killed, 7 088 missing, 27 captured
November 1941 - 20 503 men, incl. 4 772 killed, 1 368 missing, 1 captured
From Aleksey Isayev

A large part of September casualties (especially missing and prisoners) was probably incurred before urban battle started.