Question About Western Contribution to the War

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Boby
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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#151

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 13:24

Sheldrake wrote:
Boby wrote:Typical storytelling from german historians. Hitler bla bla bla, Hitler bla, bla, bla.
Don't dismiss Freiser out of hand as as typical German - unless you mean thorough and rather good..
I don't dismiss anything. He is saying quite clearly that Hitler converted an inevitable defeat into a catastrophe. Proof? Nothing, only that he was a scary dilettante in 1944.

And he is unable to explain what he means by "defeat", if this would make a difference for AGC in an ATL, if this would make a difference for the Ostheer, etc,etc

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#152

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 13:42

Boby wrote:
I don't dismiss anything. He is saying quite clearly that Hitler converted an inevitable defeat into a catastrophe. Proof? Nothing, only that he was a scary dilettante in 1944.
Do you have any proof? So you are too lazy to read the story. There are a lot of these proofs.


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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#153

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 13:47

At the time of the encirclement of the 7th Army, at least 400,000 German soldiers remained inactive in the allocated territory. They were there on the orders of Hitler in case of new landing operations of the enemy. This is certainly a mistake of Hitler.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#154

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 14:00

However the Fuhrer was against. Here and a mistake to which Freizer has pointed.

https://studopedia.ru/1_16034_osvobozhd ... hikov.html

During the autumn and winter of 1943-1944. 36 districts of Belarus, 36 district and two regional centers (Gomel, Mozyr) were liberated in whole or in part.

"Belarusian Balcony" - the front line to the east to Polotsk, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev, Bobruisk along the Pripyat River to Kovel, a ledge facing east, occupied by Army Group Center. Realizing the vulnerability of the "balcony", the German command suggested that Hitler evacuate the Dnieper bridgehead, but the Fuhrer was against another retreat: the main direction was covered - East Prussian and Warsaw-German; wanted to keep Finland in the ally, which was considering withdrawing from the war.

"Fatherland" (Fatherland) - this name was given to this line of defense of the Germans for propaganda reasons; 63 divisions, three brigades - 1.2 million people, 9.5 thousand guns and mortars, 90 tanks, about 1,350 aircraft. The defense was deeply enforced. The cities of Polotsk, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev, Bobruisk, Borisov, Minsk, by order No. 11 of March 8, 1944, were declared city-fortresses, which could only be left on the personal order of the Fuhrer.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#155

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 14:07

jesk wrote:
Boby wrote:
I don't dismiss anything. He is saying quite clearly that Hitler converted an inevitable defeat into a catastrophe. Proof? Nothing, only that he was a scary dilettante in 1944.
Do you have any proof? So you are too lazy to read the story. There are a lot of these proofs.
A lot? Please post them.

Frieser is a pure 100% operationalist, and quite overrated.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#156

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 14:12

jesk wrote:Realizing the vulnerability of the "balcony", the German command suggested that Hitler evacuate the Dnieper bridgehead, but the Fuhrer was against another retreat
This is completely useless.

"The German command". Was the OKH, the AGC, both? When? Where to retreat? Why?

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#157

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 14:21

Boby wrote:
A lot? Please post them.

Frieser is a pure 100% operationalist, and quite overrated.
I wrote one of the mistakes above. Order March 8 and a ban to withdraw troops for the Berezina. In the first days of the offensive, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev and Bobruisk were banned from leaving. Because of what the catastrophe broke out.
https://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/vitsy ... story.html

By the summer of 1944 the Red Army became stronger. An attack against the central part of the German front line began on June 23 1944. About 900,000 soldiers from aviation, tank and artillery corps took participated. This was called the ‘Belarus operation’. Vitebsk was attacked by the 43rd Army commanded by General Beloborodov from the northeast, and by the 39th Army commanded by General Ludnikov from the southeast (287). Their plan was to encircle and destroy the 3rd German tank corps, which was situated in Vitebsk area. The German Commander General-Colonel Reinhgart realized that the this unit could be exterminated, and therefore on the morning of June 24, he asked Hitler for permission to surrender. Hitler ordered that Vitebsk must be held. The 206th infantry division was to hold Vitebsk and the 53rd infantry corps was to break out of the encirclement. The German troops weren’t able carry out the order or even leave Vitebsk. Fighting began in Vitebsk on June 25. Vitebsk was seized by the Soviet troops, after fierce street fights, by the following morning. The town was razed to the ground. Only 15 buildings survived. On the morning of liberation, the population of Vitebsk numbered 186 people.
Boby wrote:This is completely useless.

"The German command". Was the OKH, the AGC, both? When? Where to retreat? Why?
Cut the front to reduce the number of idle soldiers. The Russians used this, created numerical superiority in the places of attack, when in the neighboring sectors there were no fights or the enemy's attack was weaker.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#158

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 14:29

Clausewitz wrote

http://rulibs.com/ru_zar/sci_history/kl ... 0/j14.html

Frederick the Great defeated 80,000 (66 thousand - Ed.) Austrians under Leiten with an army of 30,000 (40,000 - Ed.) People, and under Rosbach with 25,000 (22 thousand - Ed.) Defeated the forces of the Allies the French and the Austrians) with a population of 50,000 (43,000 - Ed.); However, these are only isolated examples of victories won over the enemy, twice as large as the number.

We believe that in our conditions, like them, the superiority in the decisive sector is extremely important and that in most cases it has the most important significance. The number of troops in the decisive sector depends on the absolute size of the army, as well as on the art of its use.

Consequently, the first rule is to start a war with the most powerful army. It sounds trite, but in fact it is not.

To show that for a long time the strength of the troops was by no means considered the main factor, we should note that in most even the most detailed stories of wars in the eighteenth century, the number of armies is either not mentioned at all, or is mentioned among other things. In none of these works is she given much importance.

Another proof is the amazing idea, which excited the minds of many critical historians. According to this idea, there is an optimal strength of the army, "normal force", and everything that surpasses it is not a benefit, but a burden.

And finally, you can find a number of examples of when all available military forces were not involved in a battle or war, because numerical superiority was not given the importance it really has.

The size of the absolute strength of the army to be waged by the war is determined by the government. Although real military actions begin with this definition, and it constitutes the main part of the strategy, in most cases, in most cases, the commander who commands these forces in war must consider their strength as a predetermined value or because he did not have the opportunity to establish it himself, or because the circumstances did not allow to bring it to the right size.

Therefore, he has nothing left but to skillfully apply the armed forces given to him to achieve relative numerical superiority in the decisive sectors, even when absolute superiority is unattainable.

The calculation of space and time is the most important for achieving this goal - that is why it is believed that it covers almost all the art of using military forces.

But the calculation of time and space, although it to some extent lies at the heart of the strategy and, figuratively speaking, is its daily bread, is still neither the most difficult nor the most decisive moment.

A true assessment of their opponents, the risk of temporarily leaving small forces before their very nose, the energy of forced marches, the courage of sudden attacks, the increased activity that great souls display at the moment of danger, is the basis of any victory. What are they related to the ability to accurately calculate two such simple quantities as time and space?

Much more often, the relative superiority, that is, the skillful concentration of superior forces in the decisive sector, is based on the correct estimates of this site, on the right direction that was given to the army from the very beginning, and the determination required to sacrifice not important for the sake of the important, that is keep your forces concentrated in overwhelming mass. These are the characteristic features of Frederick II the Great and Napoleon.

We believe that we have given the numerical superiority the place it deserves; it should be considered a fundamental idea and always strive for it everywhere and in the first place.

But to consider him for this reason a necessary condition for victory would be a complete misunderstanding of our interpretation, from which one can understand the significance of numerical superiority in combat. If we gather as much power as possible, then we will create all the necessary conditions; but only after assessing the situation in general, you should decide whether to give up the fight because of lack of strength or not.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#159

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 14:53

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Last edited by Boby on 13 Jan 2018, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#160

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 14:54

I wrote one of the mistakes above. Order March 8 and a ban to withdraw troops for the Berezina. In the first days of the offensive, Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev and Bobruisk were banned from leaving. Because of what the catastrophe broke out.
A mistake doesn't mean a catastrophe can be avoided. The offensive was very fast and on such magnitude that the AGC was doomed, with or without Hitler.
During the day the army group and the Operations Branch, OKH, concluded that the offensive against Army Group Center was more ambitious than they had previously assumed and probably was aimed at retaking Minsk, but the OKH believed a more powerful blow might yet be expected against Army Group North Ukraine.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/US ... at-15.html
Cut the front to reduce the number of idle soldiers. The Russians used this, created numerical superiority in the places of attack, when in the neighboring sectors there were no fights or the enemy's attack was weaker.
Reducing the front (how many?) means: a soviet superiority turns into a greater more superiority.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#161

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 16:51

Boby wrote: A mistake doesn't mean a catastrophe can be avoided. The offensive was very fast and on such magnitude that the AGC was doomed, with or without Hitler.
Empty words. Do not prove anything.
During the day the army group and the Operations Branch, OKH, concluded that the offensive against Army Group Center was more ambitious than they had previously assumed and probably was aimed at retaking Minsk, but the OKH believed a more powerful blow might yet be expected against Army Group North Ukraine.
This phrase is taken out of context. It was said on June 28, but back in early June the command of Army Group Center reported that none of the divisions could withstand the enemy's offensive. There were many alarm signals, all of them were ignored because of pressure from Hitler.

http://militera.lib.ru/research/sokolov2/09.html
The Führer rejected the proposal of Army Group "Center" commander Field Marshal Ernst Bush to withdraw troops to the Berezina River and cut the front by 240 kilometers. He also took one of the tank corps from Bush and handed it over to the commander of the Northern Ukraine Group.

https://history.wikireading.ru/71905
In early June, the headquarters of Army Group Center reported to the OKH that no division of the army group was capable of sustaining a major offensive by the enemy. In the army group "Center" in early June there were 553 tanks, about 640 aircraft, including only 40 fighters.
Reducing the front (how many?) means: a soviet superiority turns into a greater more superiority.
No. Wrong logic. The Russians possessed the initiative, they concentrated superior forces on the direction of the main blow. Reduction of the front for the benefit of the Germans, the time for maneuvering by reserves was reduced. For example, in 1944, the Germans were inactive large forces on the Atlantic coast of France, but they were not physically able to timely transfer to Belarus to repel the offensive.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#162

Post by Boby » 13 Jan 2018, 17:26

Empty words. Do not prove anything.
Where Zeitzler expected the BIG offensive? Yeah, against Army Group North Ukraine, not in the Center.
The Führer rejected the proposal of Army Group "Center" commander Field Marshal Ernst Bush to withdraw troops to the Berezina River and cut the front by 240 kilometers. He also took one of the tank corps from Bush and handed it over to the commander of the Northern Ukraine Group.
When?
In early June, the headquarters of Army Group Center reported to the OKH that no division of the army group was capable of sustaining a major offensive by the enemy. In the army group "Center" in early June there were 553 tanks, about 640 aircraft, including only 40 fighters.
AG Center was one of four armies in the East. Why would Hitler be hypnotized solely by him?
No. Wrong logic. The Russians possessed the initiative, they concentrated superior forces on the direction of the main blow. Reduction of the front for the benefit of the Germans, the time for maneuvering by reserves was reduced.
This is wishful thinking. There is no proof (for obvious reasons) that a different strategy in June would make any difference than in the OTL.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#163

Post by jesk » 13 Jan 2018, 18:30

Boby wrote:
Where Zeitzler expected the BIG offensive? Yeah, against Army Group North Ukraine, not in the Center.
This is often misleading. The fact that the Russians outwitted the Germans. Friezer, having studied the documents, came to the conclusion that the German command was well aware of Soviet preparations and the weakness of the German defense.

https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter- ... nfig=print
Frieser: When evaluating German booty files in Russian archives, I discovered that the front-line units had explained the Soviet offensive intentions surprisingly well. But the results were not adequately relayed by Army Group Center. Blame was their commander-in-chief, Field Marshal Ernst Busch. When he wanted to point out the threat, Hitler reacted with a tantrum. Busch broke in and banned "defeatist" messages. So the evil took its course.
When?
The first time in April, the last June 14. Hitler insisted the main blow would be in Ukraine against the facts.

https://kartaslov.ru/книги/Иринархов_Р_ ... кий_удар/1

The command of Army Group Center on the intelligence received it became clear that there is a large concentration of Russian forces for strikes in the directions of Bobruisk, Mogilev, Orsha, Vitebsk. His command intended to withdraw his troops to the border of Polotsk, Bobruisk, greatly reducing the front line and strengthening the density of defense. This point of view was also reported at a meeting at the General Staff of the Army, held on June 14, 1944, but she never found support at the top.

They continued to believe that the Russian offensive should be expected between the Carpathians and Kovel, which was reflected in the "Bulletin of the enemy's assessments on the Eastern Front", published on June 13, 1944. It stated that the offensive preparations of the Russian troops against the Army Group Center were intended to mislead the German command concerning the direction of the main attack and to draw back reserves from the region between the Carpathians and Kovel.

Therefore, Hitler categorically forbade the withdrawal of troops of Army Group Center, demanding from them "in any circumstances to defend and hold occupied lines," and refusing to replenish reserves. [18]

The army group commander, Field Marshal E. Bush, was asked to settle for the defense of his strip with still quite considerable forces at his disposal. However, on June 20 the command of the army group, having received news of the large-scale sabotage of Belarusian guerrillas on the railway communications, had realized that they could no longer see a quiet summer.
AG Center was one of four armies in the East. Why would Hitler be hypnotized solely by him?
For this purpose there is an investigation, it is timely to establish plans of the opponent.
This is wishful thinking. There is no proof (for obvious reasons) that a different strategy in June would make any difference than in the OTL.
Just opinion apropos. The attack on all front was the Soviet plan, forces dispersed.

http://pawet.net/library/history/bel_hi ... он%27.html

The main "novelty" of this operation was the colossal number of troops. That's why "Bagration-2" was not limited to 2-3 separate blows. A figurative comparison is worthy: if we imagine the German front in Belarus as a wooden fence, then the Soviet troops lined up from one corner to the other and broke all the boards in the fence, not two or three. Only in one place a board was broken off by one person, and in others (in Vitebsk-Orsha and the Bobruisk section), three or four people broke it at once.

By that time, the Soviet command had abandoned the method of "deep operation" (after a failed strategic offensive "from sea to sea" in the first half of 1942) in favor of another, which can be christened "wide hacking". One of the first to use it was the commander of the Western Front, Ivan Konev during Operation Mars. Subsequently, it began to be used everywhere - the welfare of the Wehrmacht contributed to it.

The use of the "wide hacking" method was a logical decision, applied to the realities of the Eastern Front. The Germans, who were far behind their enemy in strength, could not ensure the reliability of defense throughout the front. As early as the Soviet troops of the Luban offensive operation (January-April 1942), German observers in the Volkhov Front band noted that only one platoon with one machine gun provided 1 km of German defense - this is the density.

That is, the breakthrough of the first line of the German defense was a relatively simple matter, the difficulties started later.


The question arises: why with such a low saturation of the enemy front by the troops, the Soviet armies did not break this front always and everywhere? Because Soviet troops were an extremely slow mechanism - they struck their blows mainly along the most important lines of communication and these attacks, as a rule, rested on large settlements. But it is the Katyusha that are firing

these directions the Germans covered much more densely than the other sectors of the front.

Conscious of the lack of strength, German generals during the Soviet offensive in Ukraine began to apply the method of "elastic defense": in the first defensive zone held relatively few troops, having the bulk in the depth, primarily tank and mechanized units. At the same time, the main thing was to act flexibly, not trying to keep certain lines "at any cost", timely (with a deep penetration of the enemy into the defense), leading the infantry out of the flank attacks and simultaneously inflicting strong tank counterblows from the depths.

Tank units in the depths of the defense could not get any Soviet artillery, or "Stalin Falcons," who were afraid to fly to an enemy location beyond 30 km. And so, with a relatively easy break through the first line of the German defense, Soviet troops immediately received blows from armored hammers of the Wehrmacht's tank units attacking from the depths. Such a defense of the Red Army could stretch, but could not break through.

Successfully testing this tactic in the winter of 1943-44. (Korosten, Zhitomir, Melen), the command of the Army Group "South" led by Erich von Manstein decided to build on it a strategy to combat the numerically superior enemy in Ukraine, betting on the exhaustion of Soviet troops and causing them maximum losses in manpower. Manstein and the company made the correct conclusion that at the end of 1943 the Red Army began to feel a lack of reserves. But the line under the strategic calculations of their generals was led personally by the Fuhrer. In response to Manstein's proposals, he:

a) banned any future withdrawal without his own personal permission (what was substituted for the enemy by the German units, considerably inferior to the enemy number of people and the amount of equipment);

b) ordered to keep the defensive lines to the last possible, even in conditions of circumvention of the enemy flanks (what drove the German troops into Soviet "boilers" and substituted for a massive artillery fire). It can be said that it was at a meeting at its headquarters on December 27, 1943, that Hitler for six months before the main events predetermined the fate of Army Group Center.

Such a long preamble was required to explain that the breakthrough of the first German defense line in Belarus was relatively simple, thanks to the tremendous numerical superiority of the Soviet troops, the matter remained for the development of success. But here, as the subsequent events showed, the plan for the operation was not sufficiently developed.

The main problem of the "wide hacking" method was precisely this: spraying the troops along the entire front, it is difficult to create sufficient reserves of the day for the development of success in depth.

In addition, the tactical preparation of the troops for the purpose of "building up" units and fighting interaction was insufficient, and such training was extremely necessary for the parts crowded with new recruits.


German Answer

The operation "Bagration" was planned exclusively on the map. And if the command of the German group "Center" had adequate reserves, it would have ended at best in Berezina, and at worst 50-100 km from the turn of the offensive.

"Operation Bagration" is a triumph of the Soviet theory of military art due to the well-coordinated offensive movement of all fronts and the conducted operation to disinform the enemy about the place of the general offensive that began in the summer of 1944. "

Contrary to this popular fable in Russia, the Soviet offensive in Belarus was not a surprise for the Germans - a surprise was its successful development.

Like all other major Soviet offensive operations, "Bagration" was opened by the Germans - the forces of the army, aviation and radio reconnaissance - by June 10, two weeks before it began. The information was immediately sent to Hitler's bet. On June 14, a meeting was held to discuss this issue, for which the commander of the Army Group Center, Field Marshal Ernst Bush, was summoned.

How did the German propaganda show the German defense plan? Like that:
"At the headquarters of the ground forces, Hitler believed that the Soviet offensive would take place on the territory of Western Ukraine, in the band of the army group" Northern Ukraine ". That's why the main forces of the German tank armies were concentrated there (the German command planned to inflict a powerful counterattack on the expected Soviet offensive). At the request of the command of the Army Group Center to allocate at least more large reserves to it, it was stated that the general situation on the Eastern Front does not permit another grouping of forces. "

That is, the thesis "we outwitted them" is propagated. But this is nonsense. Unexpectedness for the German military ranks and Hitler's top "Bagration" was not. It's quite another matter.

E. Bush demanded from Hitler permission to withdraw troops to the boundary of the Berezina River, in order to nullify the entire plan of the Soviet command. The solution was simple, logical and effective.

First, thereby the Germans avoided the strongest first attack by the Red Army.

Secondly, the front was leveled and dangerous projections toward the "reds" were eliminated.

Thirdly, the defense zone was reduced, the military order of the troops was consolidated.

Fourthly, almost all partisan zones in Eastern Belarus faced the German front, and not behind it.

The first blow of the "councils" would have occurred in an empty place, and without hindrance having advanced beyond the Dnieper and the Druze, the Soviet troops would have rested on a new line of German defense passing along the natural river boundary. As a result, the entire Bagration would confine itself to several more or less deep wedges with very significant losses.

But the fate of Army Group Center was decided not in Moscow, but in Furer's Wolf's Den:

"Hitler, as usual, forbade withdrawal, and the unfortunate connections of the Army Group Center," defending themselves on an extremely extended front, were in fact isolated from each other even before the Russian offensive "(Mellenthin F. The armored fist of the Wehrmacht, Smolensk, 1999, p. 412) .

Then E. Bush asked to give him additional reinforcements to ensure a greater density of defense on the previous frontiers. Again, the refusal was followed - the general situation on the fronts did not allow such a measure. Here the Fuhrer was right - on June 6, 1944, the Western allies landed in Normandy (Operation "Lord"). All the reserves of Germany were now sent to France. So it was not the notorious "tank armies" in Ukraine, and it did not take many tanks in the forests and swamps of Belarus - the infantry would be enough. But the Fuhrer was "sure" that a new Soviet offensive could be successfully repelled by cash forces.

With his "brilliant" decision, he substituted for his many times superior forces of the Red Army his not very crowded troops, also stretched into a thin thread along the arc, and even with protrusions in the districts of Vitebsk, Orsha, Mogilev and Bobruisk.

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#164

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2018, 21:08

Richard Anderson wrote:
NO ONE argued that the division would be sent "East between 6 and 22 June" other than yourself.
Don't be foolish : if the 30 divisions of the Westheer could not go to the East before 22 June, it would be too late .After 22 june, the window of opportunity was closed in the East and in the West : if these divisions would leave in August, the Soviets would be already in Poland , and they could not leave in August as Dragoon would happen in August . July also would be too late as in July the Allies could start a second landing in the North .

Post from Sheldrake from 28 december "The Germans could release all full Pz formations from the West and 20 full strength infantry divisions . "

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Re: Question About Western Contribution to the War

#165

Post by ljadw » 13 Jan 2018, 21:28

jesk wrote: This is often misleading. The fact that the Russians outwitted the Germans. Friezer, having studied the documents, came to the conclusion that the German command was well aware of Soviet preparations and the weakness of the German defense.







Therefore, Hitler categorically forbade the withdrawal of troops of Army Group Center, demanding from them "in any circumstances to defend and hold occupied lines," and refusing to replenish reserves. [18]





Conscious of the lack of strength, German generals during the Soviet offensive in Ukraine began to apply the method of "elastic defense": in the first defensive zone held relatively few troops, having the bulk in the depth, primarily tank and mechanized units. At the same time, the main thing was to act flexibly, not trying to keep certain lines "at any cost", timely (with a deep penetration of the enemy into the defense), leading the infantry out of the flank attacks and simultaneously inflicting strong tank counterblows from the depths.



"Hitler, as usual, forbade withdrawal, and the unfortunate connections of the Army Group Center," defending themselves on an extremely extended front, were in fact isolated from each other even before the Russian offensive "(Mellenthin F. The armored fist of the Wehrmacht, Smolensk, 1999, p. 412) .

Then E. Bush asked to give him additional reinforcements to ensure a greater density of defense on the previous frontiers.
1) This is not correct : the Soviets were that strong that they could attack on several frionts . Before 22 June, AG NU was under heavy pressure and the few mobile reserves (9 + 10 SS ) were sent to this sectoe, because otherwise AGNU would collaps .

2) "replenish reserves" = nonsense :there were no reserves . And, if AGC was withdrawing, the other AGs also would have to withdraw .

3 ) Elastic defense is an euphemism for retreat . The only thing Manstein did after Citadel was to retreat . If you don't have sufficient mobile reserves, elastic defense is impossible .

4) Mellenthin is talking nonsense

5) There were no reinforcements available /

The situation in the East had arrived at the point that the Germans did not send their reserves where the Soviets could attack, but where they were attacking ; the Soviets were leading the dance, the Germans followed . Even if the Germans knew about Bagration, there was nothing they could do, unless taking away the mobile divisions who were preventing the collaps of AGNU .

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