Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 23 Jul 2018 16:28

Close but no coconut for me then
Thanks Art

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 26 Jul 2018 06:39

Translation of Gary's shtats is completed (please let me know of any mistakes or errors and I will correct them.
Can be downloaded from here: https://www.hgwdavie.com/data-appendix/
I found this a really useful exercise as I can see how the changes to 010-420 work out which is the next part of the project

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 26 Jul 2018 08:30

Nice!
Many thanks. I will nick this and present it in my usual format. Due credit will be given, of course.

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Gary Kennedy
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Gary Kennedy » 26 Jul 2018 10:29

Must admit I was hoping they wouldn't be published 'in clear' so to speak. They were on my to-do list for getting bayonetstrength back up and running, which like any self-respecting military project is beset by slippage, changing priorities and budgetary overruns!

I did try to make contact with the person I obtained them from, but unfortunately answer came there none. As I recall he got them from a Moscow(?) archive specific to armoured forces. At the time we were corresponding it was closed for renovations, or I would have broached the subject of whether he could visit again and see if he could pick up the 420-30 series shtat. I thought I'd got a note somewhere of the particular archive, but I can't find it now.

I'm currently getting nowhere trying to crack NARA (despite sharing a common language) and progress with the US Army Heritage Center is progressing marginally faster than continental drift, so trying to get military related documents out of Russia, destination UK, should be at least as much fun!

Gary

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 26 Jul 2018 13:00

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
26 Jul 2018 06:39
Post#92
<snip>
Can be downloaded from here: https://www.hgwdavie.com/data-appendix/
<snip>
Regarding the "ШТАТ № 010/370 Motor Rifle Brigade" spreadsheet:

Tab "010/370 Summary" — Line 6: 18+28 (46 Officers), 17 NCO, 26EM these figures in this line add up to a total of 89 men, not the shown total of 84.
Tab "370 Command" — Line 118: 84 total. (added up by me as 41 officers, 19 NCO, 24 EM)

Assumed by me as officers:
– Military Technician 1st Grade & 2nd Grade
– Intendant 3rd Grade,
– Technical Intendant 2nd Grade,
– Military Engineer 1st & 3rd Grade
– Senior Political Instructor
– Junior Political Instructor

Am I missing something?

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 26 Jul 2018 19:33

Gary Kennedy wrote:
26 Jul 2018 10:29
Must admit I was hoping they wouldn't be published 'in clear' so to speak. They were on my to-do list for getting bayonetstrength back up and running, which like any self-respecting military project is beset by slippage, changing priorities and budgetary overruns
Apologies Gary, thought the translation could be published so that we could work on them. Let me know if not and I can take them down it being on my own website. Could not get a file of this size to load onto AHF.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 26 Jul 2018 19:42

Leo Niehorster wrote:
26 Jul 2018 13:00
Regarding the "ШТАТ № 010/370 Motor Rifle Brigade" spreadsheet:

Tab "010/370 Summary" — Line 6: 18+28 (46 Officers), 17 NCO, 26EM these figures in this line add up to a total of 89 men, not the shown total of 84.
Original shows totals of
18
23
17
26
total: 84
Leo Niehorster wrote:
26 Jul 2018 13:00
Tab "370 Command" — Line 118: 84 total. (added up by me as 41 officers, 19 NCO, 24 EM)
Assumed by me as officers:
– Military Technician 1st Grade & 2nd Grade.................850
– Intendant 3rd Grade,............................................850
– Technical Intendant 2nd Grade,...............................575
– Military Engineer 1st & 3rd Grade.............................900
– Senior Political Instructor.......................................900
– Junior Political Instructor.......................................575

since they all have salaries they would all be 'officers. Number of NCOs 17, 26 EM.

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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Gary Kennedy » 27 Jul 2018 00:13

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
26 Jul 2018 19:33
Gary Kennedy wrote:
26 Jul 2018 10:29
Must admit I was hoping they wouldn't be published 'in clear' so to speak. They were on my to-do list for getting bayonetstrength back up and running, which like any self-respecting military project is beset by slippage, changing priorities and budgetary overruns
Apologies Gary, thought the translation could be published so that we could work on them. Let me know if not and I can take them down it being on my own website. Could not get a file of this size to load onto AHF.
No, please don't take it down, it's a lot of work translating and formatting there so I don't want it scratched. It was just one of those things on my own 'to do' list, but probably coming in around number 117... :)

Gary

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 27 Jul 2018 07:30

Shtat 010/420-431
It occurred to me that since we are often referring to one particular Pamyat Naroda document to bolster a particular set of numbers that we should conduct an overview of all the Pamyat Naroda and other sources to gain an idea of the spread of numbers. I did this keeping in strict date order and it was a bit a of a jumble but then it occurred to me that these were a) a mix of Motor Rifle and Mech Bdes b) units did not necessarily all update themselves to new shat changes at the same time. So I re-ordered the list to group totals of personnel by size and the only parameter I kept as regards date was the overall year - this is what I got:
Comparison of sources for 010-420.png
What is clear from this is that the Motor Rifle Bde is pretty constant in size with minor changes but there is quite a range in size due the various Tank Regiments in the Mech Bdes.

As regards Zaloga & Ness table 2.18 this gives a total of 3558 less Tank Regt 470 = 3088 to which we can add 110 men from the missing Transport Company = 3198
Z&amp;N 010-420.jpg
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Last edited by Der Alte Fritz on 27 Jul 2018 19:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 27 Jul 2018 13:05

Thank you.

Would it be possible to break down the "Technical Supply Company" (Shtat 010/379), in the way you do for the other units? :oops:

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 27 Jul 2018 19:48

The original shtat only shows what I put on the spreadsheet and so it lacks any detail.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 27 Jul 2018 21:11

Pity.

Thank you for all the fine work.
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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Leo Niehorster » 28 Jul 2018 10:22

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
26 Jul 2018 06:39
Post#92
<snip>
Can be downloaded from here: https://www.hgwdavie.com/data-appendix/
<snip>
Tab "371 Command" — Line 174: 76mm gun / PTO lightweight 45mm
Is PTO = "please turn over" the 45mm for 76mm?

Thanks again.
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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 28 Jul 2018 16:18

Screenshot 2018-07-28 10.44.58.png
ПТО or PTO (in latin) = Противотанковое орудие = Anti-tank gun
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Sharposhnikov
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Re: Mechanised Corps 2nd Generation

Post by Sharposhnikov » 28 Jul 2018 16:55

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
28 Jul 2018 16:18
Screenshot 2018-07-28 10.44.58.png
ПТО or PTO (in latin) = Противотанковое орудие = Anti-tank gun
In addition, note that after 'PTO' is the phrase: "облегченных /УСВ/ или 45мм", or 'light weight /USV/ or 45mm', in other words, either the 76.2mm pre-war model 1939 USV or the 45mm antitank guns. 'light weight' and 'USV' do not actually fit together here, as the USV weighed about 270 kilograms more than the ZIS-3 76.2mm cannon built during the war. It may be simply mean either the 'light weight' ZIS-3 or the USV in contrast to the older Model 1936 F-22 76.2mm, which weighed 150 kg more than the USV but was still around in some quantity (I've seen numerous photographs of F-22s in the antitank brigades in mid to late 1943, for instance)

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