Soviet and German ammunition production

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Hiryu-
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Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 26 Jul 2018 10:32

Hello,

According to this page: https://www.proza.ru/2009/05/12/1124
The USSR produced 10 million tons of ammunition in 1941-45 (table 18) and Germany 8,583 million tons in 1940-45.

Are these numbers correct? Are they comparable in scope? The Soviet number include everything: shells, bullets, naval ammunition, mines etc. I'm not sure of what is included in the German number.

Art
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Art » 26 Jul 2018 12:44

Hiryu- wrote:
26 Jul 2018 10:32
According to this page: https://www.proza.ru/2009/05/12/1124
The USSR produced 10 million tons of ammunition in 1941-45 (table 18) and Germany 8,583 million tons in 1940-45.

Are these numbers correct?
Yep, there are such numbers in books. I believe the German tonnage doesn't include air bombs and torpedoes. Not sure about flaks and naval guns. From another known set of data German ground forces expended 5.3 million tons of ammunition on the Eastern Front alone (6.41-10.44).
I'm not sure what the tonnage means in each case. Is it a gross weight of ammunition boxes or a weight of rounds+cases+propellant? These are different things obviously.
Anyway see some earlier topic plus additional links:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=235629
In general, there are hard and detailed data on Soviet Army and air force ammunition consumption, on German Heer ammo consumption up to March 1945, on German ammo production. However, I don't remember fully detailed stats on Soviet ammunition production after 1943.

Hiryu-
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 26 Jul 2018 13:05

Art wrote:
26 Jul 2018 12:44
Hiryu- wrote:
26 Jul 2018 10:32
According to this page: https://www.proza.ru/2009/05/12/1124
The USSR produced 10 million tons of ammunition in 1941-45 (table 18) and Germany 8,583 million tons in 1940-45.

Are these numbers correct?
Yep, there are such numbers in books. I believe the German tonnage doesn't include air bombs and torpedoes. Not sure about flaks and naval guns. From another known set of data German ground forces expended 5.3 million tons of ammunition on the Eastern Front alone (6.41-10.44).
I'm not sure what the tonnage means in each case. Is it a gross weight of ammunition boxes or a weight of rounds+cases+propellant? These are different things obviously.
Anyway see some earlier topic plus additional links:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=235629
In general, there are hard and detailed data on Soviet Army and air force ammunition consumption, on German Heer ammo consumption up to March 1945, on German ammo production. However, I don't remember fully detailed stats on Soviet ammunition production after 1943.
Eichholtz (table 64) https://books.google.fr/books?id=URwgAA ... 00&f=false
wrote that it includes bullets, "infantry ammunition", Flak & "Bordwaffen-munition", and munition of 7,5cm and above. That's not very precise to say the last...

Art
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Art » 26 Jul 2018 20:52

Theoretically speaking one can try to estimate calculate gross weight from production figures. But that must be time-consuming somewhat.

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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Art » 26 Jul 2018 21:37

Also from a deeply hidden part of a previous topic: a comparison of expenditure in terms of projectile tonnage:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... w2.308559/

Hiryu-
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 27 Jul 2018 11:25

Art wrote:
26 Jul 2018 21:37
Also from a deeply hidden part of a previous topic: a comparison of expenditure in terms of projectile tonnage:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... w2.308559/
These estimates don't include mortar shells right? If not it skips a very large part of the Soviet ammunition...

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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Art » 27 Jul 2018 12:14

They do, you can see from the charts and the accompanying table.

Hiryu-
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 27 Jul 2018 12:54

Art wrote:
27 Jul 2018 12:14
They do, you can see from the charts and the accompanying table.
These numbers looks very strange to me. German ammo consumption in tons was 50% larger in 1944 - without AA.
But Soviet ammo production was 3,5m tons vs 3,35m tons for Germany. How was it possible? Were the Soviets stockpiling a large part of their production?

Overy in "The bombing war" (table 7.1) gives the same numbers than Eichholz for the German ammunition production: 8,6m tons for 1940-44 incl. 3,35m for 1944. His source is "IWM S 363, documents Saur, Auszug aus dem Leistungsbericht von Minister speer 27.1.1945". Does anyone knows exactly what kind of ammunition is counted in?

Art
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Art » 27 Jul 2018 14:59

I'm not able to sort it out myself. But at least those expenditure figures are solid and reliable.

Hiryu-
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 27 Jul 2018 16:03

Art wrote:
27 Jul 2018 14:59
I'm not able to sort it out myself. But at least those expenditure figures are solid and reliable.
Thank for your responses Art. I guess further research is needed on the particular subject of German ammunition production.

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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Richard Anderson » 28 Jul 2018 15:34

Hiryu- wrote:
27 Jul 2018 12:54
Overy in "The bombing war" (table 7.1) gives the same numbers than Eichholz for the German ammunition production: 8,6m tons for 1940-44 incl. 3,35m for 1944. His source is "IWM S 363, documents Saur, Auszug aus dem Leistungsbericht von Minister speer 27.1.1945". Does anyone knows exactly what kind of ammunition is counted in?
That would be Speer's "Schnellberichte", which may also be found in BAMA R3/1731. The categories are:

Leichte Infanteriemunition
Schwere Infanteriemunition
Artillerie und Werfermunition
KwK-Munition
Flak-Munition
Minen, Haftladung, und Handgranaten
Bordmunition
Abwurfmunition
Marine-Artillerie-Munition
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Hiryu-
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Hiryu- » 29 Jul 2018 12:36

It seems to me that the Soviet and German figures have the same scope (torpedoes and naval mines don't seem to be included in the German numbers though). So the USSR produced more ammunition than Germany... but Germany still fired 50% more tons of ammunition than the USSR in 42-44 despite having less guns :?

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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Jul 2018 19:04

Hiryu- wrote:
29 Jul 2018 12:36
It seems to me that the Soviet and German figures have the same scope (torpedoes and naval mines don't seem to be included in the German numbers though).
Sorry, but while the Speer report does not include sea mines, except for air-dropped, it does include torpedo production on page 10 for the Ge7, Ge7e, and Ge7es (a total of 977 in January 1945 for example) and aerial torpedoes.
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tramonte
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by tramonte » 12 Feb 2020 20:20

Luftwaffe consumed just in 1943 total 351,266 tons bombs (Soviet U: 181,801 tons) and 215,620 tons AA-ammunition. What Armaments Report 6 Feb 1945 BA-MA R3/1729 is suggesting during that year 1943 are these figures of Wehrmacht production of ammunition:

Rifle and pistol ammo: 3,174,800,000
Other infantry weapons: 118,440,000 (like what? Mortar shells? Mines? Or perhaps HE shells for AT/AA guns)
Light AA and AT ammo: 196,332,000 (bulk of it light AA ammo)

Calibers >75 mm
AT and tank cannon: 18 million (if average 8 kilos then 144,000 tons)
AA guns: 16.6 million (if 88 mm is average then its about 150,000 tons)
Artillery: 56 million (if average 20 kilos then the production has been 1.12 million tons???)
Rocket Launchers: 2.35 million (check rockets of Nebelwerfer... these were much heavier than used by Red Army)

There is interesting figure: 2,558 ('000) Gen. - Qu. -t Perhaps it's suggesting that whole ammunition production has been in 1943 total 2,558 million tons but excluding for instance torpedoes, naval mines and bombs?

All years:
1940: 865
1941: 540
1942: 1170
1943: 2558 (you have to add at least bombs perhaps more than 0.35 million tons, torpedoes etc)
1944: 3350
---------------
total.....8483

These figures are only for small arms (rifle and pistol), other infantry weapons, light and heavy AT/AA, artillery, rocket launchers. No bombs and torpedoes, perhaps some other smaller ammo production groups?

Some questions: Germans used lots of 81 mm and 120 mm mortars (and heavier) and i have now no idea what has been the production of these shells.

Germany: ammunition production distribution by service and quarter in 1943:

Army: 67%, 67%, 64%, 63%
Luftwaffe: 15%, 15%, 12%, 15%
Navy: 4%, 4%, 4%, 3%
Anti-Aircraft: 14%, 14%, 20%, 19%

Source: USSBS, European Report 3, p. 284
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tramonte
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Re: Soviet and German ammunition production

Post by tramonte » 03 Oct 2020 09:23

So far i haven't get clear information what was e.g German field artillery and mortar ammunition production with light 75 mm guns, 105 mm light/middle artillery, 150 mm etc. The mortar ammunition production (81mm, 120 mm etc) is total mystery. Do i have believe that 1941-44 production 165.5 million rounds (and 67.6 million in 1944) was only field artillery or was their mortar rounds (81-120 mm) inside those figures?

When it comes to Soviet field artillery ammo expenditure there are numbers of 1944 suggesting this share:

76 mm guns....................... 31,939,000 rounds (average ~6.25 kg)
107 mm guns...................... 99,800 rounds (average ~ 17 kg)
122 mm howitzers/guns...........8,378,500 rounds (average ~ 22 kg, howitzers)
152 mm howitzers..................3,543,100 rounds ( average ~ 43 kg howitzers)
203 mm howitzers....................167,770 rounds (average ~ 100 kilos )
210 mm guns................................ 50 rounds (average ~ 135 kilos) (these low figures are likely not true)
305 mm howitzers........................ 660 rounds (average ~ 340 kilos)

Total 44,128,880 field artillery rounds with total weigth of some 554,205 tons with average weight 12.56 kilos. This is just my calculation based on weight of shell from wikipedia and there are surely some mistakes. But the big picture of expenditure was suggesting clearly less than 600,000 tons ammo.

And when we go to Soviet mortar ammo expenditure (1944):

50 mm mortar: 3,236,500 rounds ( average ~0.85 kilos)
82 mm mortar: 42,550 700 rounds (average ~3.3 kilos)
120 mm mortar: 15,454 000 rounds (average ~15.8 kilos)
160 mm mortar: 12,200 rounds (average ~40.8 kilos )
280 mm mortar : 3,320 rounds (average ~ 246 kilos

Total 61,643,320 rounds, total weight 392,176 tons and average weight of round about 6.36 kilos. These weights taken from wikipedia sources and estimated.


And then rockets:

M-8 82 - 0.64 kilos
M-13 132 - 4.9 kilos
M-13DD 132- 4.9 kilos
M-13UK 132 - 4.9 kilos
M-20 132 - 18.4 kilos
M-30 300 - 28.9 kilos
M-31 300 - 28.9 kilos
M-31UK 300 - 28.9 kilos

And expenditure of rockets in 1944:

M 8: 1,270,000 rounds, total weight : 812,8 tons
M 13: 2,190,000 rounds, total weight: 10,731 tons
M 20: 60,000 rounds, total weight: 1,104 tons
M 30/31: 476,500 rounds, total weight 13,771 tons

Total 3,996,500 "Katjusha"-rockets with weight of ~26,419 tons. Average 6.61 kilos per rocket.

Taking field artillery + mortars + rockets = 972,800 tons.

---------------------

The question here is was that largely used numbers of German "artillery" ammo production (> 75 mm, 67.6 million rounds in 1944) actually only field artillery/mountain guns or did it include also mortars like 81 mm and 120 mm? We should also focus the fact that most common German field artillery pieces were those of 105 mm and numbers of 150 mm guns/howitzers (15 cm sFH 18) were near that of 75 mm guns/mountain guns. This suggests that average round weight of German field artillery was much higher than that of Red Army.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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