Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
benwi
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 16 Aug 2018 17:54

ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
You are in denial.A Taifun without mud ends up much further to the east,achieving higher results in every aspect.

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stg 44
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by stg 44 » 16 Aug 2018 19:22

ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
Stahel and plenty of others state 650,000. The Red Army was defeated nearly completely, the USSR just took advantage of their last reserves and the weather to build more armies and counterattack. Without the weather interfering Moscow might have fallen in October 1941 given the limited opposition left in front of Moscow.

In Bagration the Soviets largely did destroy the forces that were within the pocket, same with Vyazma-Bryansk. The Germans just had other armies remaining and the Soviets ran out of logistical steam at the Vistula as German reinforcements from Italy appeared.

ljadw
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 16 Aug 2018 20:48

benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
You are in denial.A Taifun without mud ends up much further to the east,achieving higher results in every aspect.
Prove it .
Besides, the aim of Taifun was not to go as afar as possible to the east, but to destroy the opposing Soviet forces .

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 16 Aug 2018 20:52

benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:51
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:00
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 15:49
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
Motorised units advance much quicker when not hampered directly and indirectly by mud turning roads into quagmires.So Taifun a month earlier automatically achieves more than in october.
Wrong answer : the advance of motorised units was depending on the enemy resistance, and the speed of the advance was depending on the speed of the infantry : mobile units did not advance without the protection of infantry/artillery .
The success of Taifun a month earlier would principally depend on the strength of the opponent, and as the Germans were weaker in August than in September, Taifun had no chance to succeed a month earlier .
Besides, a possible success of Taifun was not depending on an advance to /capture of Moscow , but on the destruction of the opposing Soviet forces and on the possibility that the Soviets could not replace these forces .
You clearly have no clue. Once breakthrough is achieved mobile forces move as fast as they can drive which is obviously a lot slower when you are stuck in mud and your fuel does not come through.Obviously mobile divisions do not wait for the infantry divisions .
Waiting a month does not make you relatively stronger as your opponent will get stronger too.In additon to that, there was no real pause as many of the mobile units were involved in operations to the north and south which causes losses and wear and tear on vehicles.
Hitler did not decide on a pause .He was simply more interested in other objectives.The supposedly impossibility of advancing on Moscow in august is a postwar invention .
Prove it .
In August,the Soviets were that strong that they were attacking and the Germans lost 200000 men, the highest figure til Stalingrad .To have a point, you must prove that Typhoon in August would be more successful than Taifun in October .

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018 06:07

stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 19:22
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
Stahel and plenty of others state 650,000. The Red Army was defeated nearly completely, the USSR just took advantage of their last reserves and the weather to build more armies and counterattack. Without the weather interfering Moscow might have fallen in October 1941 given the limited opposition left in front of Moscow.

In Bagration the Soviets largely did destroy the forces that were within the pocket, same with Vyazma-Bryansk. The Germans just had other armies remaining and the Soviets ran out of logistical steam at the Vistula as German reinforcements from Italy appeared.
Nearly completerly means :it was not defeated .
Soviet strength on December 1 1941 :
Operational forces :4,018.068 with 12475 pieces of artillery,1956 tanks,4179 combat aircraft,
Stavka reserve :544616,12678 guns,111 aircraft .
The Red Army was stronger than in June 1941, the Ostheer was weaker .
And the fall of Moscow would not have any influence on the outcome of the war .The fall of Moscow would not result in the collaps of the SU, but the collaps of the SU would result in the fall of Moscow .The aim of Barbarossa was not the capture of Moscow, but it was to go to the AA line,and the AA line could only be reached by the collaps of the SU ,and this would happen by the defeat of the standing Soviet forces between the border and the DD line;everything that happened east of the DD line and after August was irrelevant for the outcome of the war .The war could only be won west of the DD line, if he was not won west of the DD line and continued east of the DD line,he was lost .
That Taifun could give Germany victory in the east is only a wet dream of the fan boys .

benwi
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018 07:54

ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:48
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
You are in denial.A Taifun without mud ends up much further to the east,achieving higher results in every aspect.
Prove it .
Besides, the aim of Taifun was not to go as afar as possible to the east, but to destroy the opposing Soviet forces .
To destroy these forces you need to move east fast and that is not possible when mobility is down..

benwi
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Posts: 152
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Location: belgium

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018 07:57

ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:52
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:51
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:00
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 15:49
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
Motorised units advance much quicker when not hampered directly and indirectly by mud turning roads into quagmires.So Taifun a month earlier automatically achieves more than in october.
Wrong answer : the advance of motorised units was depending on the enemy resistance, and the speed of the advance was depending on the speed of the infantry : mobile units did not advance without the protection of infantry/artillery .
The success of Taifun a month earlier would principally depend on the strength of the opponent, and as the Germans were weaker in August than in September, Taifun had no chance to succeed a month earlier .
Besides, a possible success of Taifun was not depending on an advance to /capture of Moscow , but on the destruction of the opposing Soviet forces and on the possibility that the Soviets could not replace these forces .
You clearly have no clue. Once breakthrough is achieved mobile forces move as fast as they can drive which is obviously a lot slower when you are stuck in mud and your fuel does not come through.Obviously mobile divisions do not wait for the infantry divisions .
Waiting a month does not make you relatively stronger as your opponent will get stronger too.In additon to that, there was no real pause as many of the mobile units were involved in operations to the north and south which causes losses and wear and tear on vehicles.
Hitler did not decide on a pause .He was simply more interested in other objectives.The supposedly impossibility of advancing on Moscow in august is a postwar invention .
Prove it .
In August,the Soviets were that strong that they were attacking and the Germans lost 200000 men, the highest figure til Stalingrad .To have a point, you must prove that Typhoon in August would be more successful than Taifun in October .
You do not make the situation better by waiting a month.The ratio of forces will not develop in your favour.Add the weather factor and you are much worse off.And not gloing for Moscou in august had nothing with Hitler thinking that it was not possible.All that is postwar invention.

benwi
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Location: belgium

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018 08:00

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2018 06:07
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 19:22
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:09
Prove it .
And, it was impossible to go to Moscow to destroy the Red Army : the defeat of the Red Army was only possible between the border and the DD line .
The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
Vyazma-Bryansk 663,000 POWs 1,242 tanks 5,412 guns
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
Stahel and plenty of others state 650,000. The Red Army was defeated nearly completely, the USSR just took advantage of their last reserves and the weather to build more armies and counterattack. Without the weather interfering Moscow might have fallen in October 1941 given the limited opposition left in front of Moscow.

In Bagration the Soviets largely did destroy the forces that were within the pocket, same with Vyazma-Bryansk. The Germans just had other armies remaining and the Soviets ran out of logistical steam at the Vistula as German reinforcements from Italy appeared.
That Taifun could give Germany victory in the east is only a wet dream of the fan boys .
An earlier Taifun gives Germany a better chance at victory,no more no less.You should be prudent when using the word 'fanboy' as it is very Obvious you systematically defend Hitlers decisions.

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018 09:40

benwi wrote:
17 Aug 2018 07:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:48
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44
stg 44 wrote:
16 Aug 2018 13:35

The largest pocket during Barbarossa in terms of captured and killed was Vyazma and Bryansk in October 1941.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... Barbarossa
But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
You are in denial.A Taifun without mud ends up much further to the east,achieving higher results in every aspect.
Prove it .
Besides, the aim of Taifun was not to go as afar as possible to the east, but to destroy the opposing Soviet forces .
To destroy these forces you need to move east fast and that is not possible when mobility is down..
NO:that is wrong, the Germans did not need to go east (Moscow,or east of Moscow)to destroy the opposing Soviet forces, as these forces were located WEST of Moscow .
If these forces were not destroyed, it would be impossible to capture Moscow, and if they were destroyed, it was not needed to capture Moscow .

Boby
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by Boby » 17 Aug 2018 10:01

A few days after Typhoon started, Hitler issued an order that, in the event of Moscow wanting to surrender, this must NOT to be accepted.

No german soldier would enter either Petersburg or Moscow.

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018 10:03

benwi wrote:
17 Aug 2018 07:57
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:52
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:51
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:00
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 15:49


Motorised units advance much quicker when not hampered directly and indirectly by mud turning roads into quagmires.So Taifun a month earlier automatically achieves more than in october.
Wrong answer : the advance of motorised units was depending on the enemy resistance, and the speed of the advance was depending on the speed of the infantry : mobile units did not advance without the protection of infantry/artillery .
The success of Taifun a month earlier would principally depend on the strength of the opponent, and as the Germans were weaker in August than in September, Taifun had no chance to succeed a month earlier .
Besides, a possible success of Taifun was not depending on an advance to /capture of Moscow , but on the destruction of the opposing Soviet forces and on the possibility that the Soviets could not replace these forces .
You clearly have no clue. Once breakthrough is achieved mobile forces move as fast as they can drive which is obviously a lot slower when you are stuck in mud and your fuel does not come through.Obviously mobile divisions do not wait for the infantry divisions .
Waiting a month does not make you relatively stronger as your opponent will get stronger too.In additon to that, there was no real pause as many of the mobile units were involved in operations to the north and south which causes losses and wear and tear on vehicles.
Hitler did not decide on a pause .He was simply more interested in other objectives.The supposedly impossibility of advancing on Moscow in august is a postwar invention .
Prove it .
In August,the Soviets were that strong that they were attacking and the Germans lost 200000 men, the highest figure til Stalingrad .To have a point, you must prove that Typhoon in August would be more successful than Taifun in October .
You do not make the situation better by waiting a month.The ratio of forces will not develop in your favour.Add the weather factor and you are much worse off.And not gloing for Moscou in august had nothing with Hitler thinking that it was not possible.All that is postwar invention.
The postwar inventions were created by Halder and the aims of Halder were
1 to deny the involvement of the WM in the Holocaust
2 to blame Hitler for the defeat
3 to convince people that if he had listened to the army chief of staff (Halder :P ) Germany would have won the war .
The postwar invention was : Auschwitz? The bad Hitler. Stalingrad : the stupid Hitler . :P

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018 10:06

Boby wrote:
17 Aug 2018 10:01
A few days after Typhoon started, Hitler issued an order that, in the event of Moscow wanting to surrender, this must NOT to be accepted.

No german soldier would enter either Petersburg or Moscow.
I thought that this order only applied to Petersburg :?

benwi
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Location: belgium

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018 12:23

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2018 10:03
benwi wrote:
17 Aug 2018 07:57
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:52
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:51
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:00


Wrong answer : the advance of motorised units was depending on the enemy resistance, and the speed of the advance was depending on the speed of the infantry : mobile units did not advance without the protection of infantry/artillery .
The success of Taifun a month earlier would principally depend on the strength of the opponent, and as the Germans were weaker in August than in September, Taifun had no chance to succeed a month earlier .
Besides, a possible success of Taifun was not depending on an advance to /capture of Moscow , but on the destruction of the opposing Soviet forces and on the possibility that the Soviets could not replace these forces .
You clearly have no clue. Once breakthrough is achieved mobile forces move as fast as they can drive which is obviously a lot slower when you are stuck in mud and your fuel does not come through.Obviously mobile divisions do not wait for the infantry divisions .
Waiting a month does not make you relatively stronger as your opponent will get stronger too.In additon to that, there was no real pause as many of the mobile units were involved in operations to the north and south which causes losses and wear and tear on vehicles.
Hitler did not decide on a pause .He was simply more interested in other objectives.The supposedly impossibility of advancing on Moscow in august is a postwar invention .
Prove it .
In August,the Soviets were that strong that they were attacking and the Germans lost 200000 men, the highest figure til Stalingrad .To have a point, you must prove that Typhoon in August would be more successful than Taifun in October .
You do not make the situation better by waiting a month.The ratio of forces will not develop in your favour.Add the weather factor and you are much worse off.And not gloing for Moscou in august had nothing with Hitler thinking that it was not possible.All that is postwar invention.
The postwar inventions were created by Halder and the aims of Halder were
1 to deny the involvement of the WM in the Holocaust
2 to blame Hitler for the defeat
3 to convince people that if he had listened to the army chief of staff (Halder :P ) Germany would have won the war .
The postwar invention was : Auschwitz? The bad Hitler. Stalingrad : the stupid Hitler . :P
Ridiculous.What was proposed by the OKH in august 1941 and what Hitler decided and why is well documented.Hitler did not decide on a pause.
Listening to Halder in 1941 and 1942 would have worked better for Germany.

benwi
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Location: belgium

Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by benwi » 17 Aug 2018 12:26

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2018 09:40
benwi wrote:
17 Aug 2018 07:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 20:48
benwi wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:54
ljadw wrote:
16 Aug 2018 16:44


But it still did not result in the defeat of the Red Army .Besides : 663000 is tooo much ( Jukes gives a figure of 514000 ), 663000 is the number that was encircled, not the number that was captured : a lot of Soviet soldiers were breaking through the encirclment; the same happened for Bagration ,where a lot of Germans escaped to the German lines ." Only " some 150000 Germans became POWs .
You are in denial.A Taifun without mud ends up much further to the east,achieving higher results in every aspect.
Prove it .
Besides, the aim of Taifun was not to go as afar as possible to the east, but to destroy the opposing Soviet forces .
To destroy these forces you need to move east fast and that is not possible when mobility is down..
NO:that is wrong, the Germans did not need to go east (Moscow,or east of Moscow)to destroy the opposing Soviet forces, as these forces were located WEST of Moscow .
If these forces were not destroyed, it would be impossible to capture Moscow, and if they were destroyed, it was not needed to capture Moscow .
It seems to me you need to advance east to take Moscow. :lol: Forces to the west of Moscow are to the east of the german line. :lol:

ljadw
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Posts: 12730
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Re: Barbarossa, Delay: Balkans or Rain

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018 13:18

To take Moscow was not needed for the success of Taifun .And ,as for Barbarossa, for Fall Blau, .. the success of Taifun depended on what the Soviets would do : if the Soviets retreated east of Moscow,refusing the battle of Bryansk/Vyazma or if they locked themselves up in Moscow, Taifun had no chance to succeed .

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