What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

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Futurist
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What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Futurist » 25 Sep 2018 20:02

What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Are the victorious Entente going to allow Spain to maintain its current borders? Or are they going to strip Spain of some of its territories--as well as its colonies?

If so, what are Spain's new borders going to look like?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Sep 2018 20:17

I would imagine that the European borders would be unaltered - though the French did break the Atlantic Charter by annexing the heads of some Alpine valleys from Italy. However, there they used the excuse that Italy had used them to invade France in 1940. No such Spanish attack occurred to justify a similar French response in the Pyrenees.

If any adjustments were to be made, they would presumably be in favour of the French in North Africa. However, given that all of French North Africa was independent in little more than 15 years, this would be a bit like reallocating the deckchairs on the Titanic!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Futurist » 25 Sep 2018 20:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
25 Sep 2018 20:17
I would imagine that the European borders would be unaltered - though the French did break the Atlantic Charter by annexing the heads of some Alpine valleys from Italy. However, there they used the excuse that Italy had used them to invade France in 1940. No such Spanish attack occurred to justify a similar French response in the Pyrenees.

If any adjustments were to be made, they would presumably be in favour of the French in North Africa. However, given that all of French North Africa was independent in little more than 15 years, this would be a bit like reallocating the deckchairs on the Titanic!

Cheers,

Sid.
What you wrote here certainly makes sense, Sid! :)

That said, though, what I was thinking of was making Catalonia and/or the Basque Country independent. Would either of these two things have been plausible in this scenario?

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by South » 25 Sep 2018 20:44

Good afternoon Futurist and Sid,

Do note and factor in the sanctity of Gibraltar, BCC and the Atlantic base for Med access and going west.

Spain was not on the list to join NATO immediately after WWII but Portugal was.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Sep 2018 18:02

Hi Futurist,

I doubt the French would welcome either. They had a Basque minority of their own on the border of Spain and the language of southern France (Langue d'Oc) was more closely related to Catalan than to Parisian French. Independence for either might start to undermine the territorial integrity of France as well.

Sid.

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Futurist » 26 Sep 2018 22:22

Sid Guttridge wrote:
26 Sep 2018 18:02
Hi Futurist,

I doubt the French would welcome either. They had a Basque minority of their own on the border of Spain and the language of southern France (Langue d'Oc) was more closely related to Catalan than to Parisian French. Independence for either might start to undermine the territorial integrity of France as well.

Sid.
Wasn't the Occitan language already dying out by the 1940s, though?

Also, I don't seem to hear France being particularly concerned about the idea of an independent Catalonia nowadays.

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Ironmachine » 27 Sep 2018 06:14

Futurist wrote:Also, I don't seem to hear France being particularly concerned about the idea of an independent Catalonia nowadays.
Probably because nobody there is really taking seriously the idea of an independent Catalonia. But the French government did make a forceful political response in defense of the territorial integrity of Spain.

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RE: What Happens To Spain After World War Two If It Joins The Axis And Loses?

Post by Robert Rojas » 27 Sep 2018 07:29

Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - September 25, 2018 - 11:02am, old yours truly is of the school of thought that the territorial disposition of continental Spain will change very little after the formal capitulation of the Falangist Regime in year 1945. Given the deteriorating political environment between the Western Allies and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in year 1945, I cannot imagine that either London or Paris would desire any potential distractions on the Iberian Peninsula with the possibility of renewed hostilities in Central and Eastern Europe. Now, as unlikely as this might be, with Spain now under Anglo-Franco occupation, London "MIGHT" take this golden opportunity to increase its own territorial holdings adjacent to Gibraltar. This expansion "MIGHT' include the Bay of Gibraltar and the Port City of Algeciras. Beyond this territorial "acquisition", I do not see any radical changes with Spain's territorial integrity. After all, the Western Allies will ultimately need Spain as an ally and there would be no point in engaging in behavior that might alienate the now successor government in Madrid. Finally, on an incidental note, the Anglo-Franco occupation of Spain just "MIGHT" act as a deterrent to a potential Second Spanish Civil War. Yes folks, there is nothing like wishful thinking! Well, that is my two initial two cents worth on this topic fraught with boobytraps - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of what was once our Golden State of California.


Best Regards From The Greater San Francisco Bay Area,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What happens to Spain after WWII if it joins the Axis and loses?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Sep 2018 18:44

Hi Futurist,

The French Establishment are very concerned about the possibility of an independent Catalonia, if only because they don't want to encourage Breton and Corsican nationalism. Until a few years ago, Breton babies couldn't even be registered with Breton names.

Occitan was the victim of France's universal education system, which is highly centralized. I haven't checked it out, but I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't partly to extinguish regional linguistic variations such as Occitan.

Cheers,

Sid

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