Panzerzug - 1945

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Post Reply
Volyn
Member
Posts: 455
Joined: 04 Jul 2018, 05:53
Location: USA

Panzerzug - 1945

#1

Post by Volyn » 30 Oct 2018, 15:58

I am searching for a Panzerzug that was operating near Groß Krössin - which is the modern Polish city of Krosino (powiat szczecinecki). This train was bombarding elements from the Soviet 1st Bn - 231st Guards Rifle Regiment - 75th Guards Rifle Division on 27 FEB 1945. The attack commenced at 16:40 with 17 shots recorded and only one wounded casualty officially reported.

Can this Panzerzug be identified?

User avatar
hucks216
Member
Posts: 1936
Joined: 20 Jan 2007, 23:49
Location: England

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#2

Post by hucks216 » 30 Oct 2018, 16:20

This is the KTB and has entries for 1945 which might help (pages 65 & 66):

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/7

There is a fair bit of information for 1945 in German Armored Trains 1904-1945 (ISBN: 9780764335235) by Wolfgang Sawodny but neither of the place names you state are mentioned.
According to Wiki, Groß Krössin/Krosino is now a village with a population of 550.

It looks like PZ-72A, PZ-L5 & PZ-77 might of been in that area.


Volyn
Member
Posts: 455
Joined: 04 Jul 2018, 05:53
Location: USA

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#3

Post by Volyn » 30 Oct 2018, 18:02

hucks216 wrote:
30 Oct 2018, 16:20
This is the KTB and has entries for 1945 which might help (pages 65 & 66):

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/7

There is a fair bit of information for 1945 in German Armored Trains 1904-1945 (ISBN: 9780764335235) by Wolfgang Sawodny but neither of the place names you state are mentioned.
According to Wiki, Groß Krössin/Krosino is now a village with a population of 550.

It looks like PZ-72A, PZ-L5 & PZ-77 might of been in that area.
Great thanks hucks! I'll check into these and see what else I can dig up.

Volyn
Member
Posts: 455
Joined: 04 Jul 2018, 05:53
Location: USA

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#4

Post by Volyn » 01 Nov 2018, 21:36

hucks216 wrote:
30 Oct 2018, 16:20
This is the KTB and has entries for 1945 which might help (pages 65 & 66):

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/7

There is a fair bit of information for 1945 in German Armored Trains 1904-1945 (ISBN: 9780764335235) by Wolfgang Sawodny but neither of the place names you state are mentioned.
According to Wiki, Groß Krössin/Krosino is now a village with a population of 550.

It looks like PZ-72A, PZ-L5 & PZ-77 might of been in that area.
I found the following -
It seems very likely that the Panzerzug seen near Groß Krössin is Panzer-Lehr-Zug 5 (PZ-L5) destroyed or blown up by its own crew in the area of ​​Bialogard 05 MAR 1945, the distance from Groß Krössin to Bialogard is only 20km on straight rails. My estimation is it can only be PZ-L5, because PZ-72A was destroyed or damaged in Kołobrzeg, as reported by Gen. Kieniewicz - Battle report No. 0066 of the commander of the Polish 4th Infantry Division on combat operations in Kołobrzeg on 15 MAR 1945.

hucks216 are you able to confirm if this is accurate?

User avatar
hucks216
Member
Posts: 1936
Joined: 20 Jan 2007, 23:49
Location: England

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#5

Post by hucks216 » 02 Nov 2018, 18:52

From page 402 from German Armored Trains 1904-1945 by Wolfgang Sawodny:

On 24th February strong Soviet forces had entered Pomerania to break toward the Baltic Sea, and quickly gained territory from the Preussisch-Friedland-Schlochau line to the northwest. The armoured trains in Stargard (PZ-77 & PZ-L-5) were sent on the march to the west flank of the breakthrough area on 25th February. The next day PZ-77 was able to ward off the attack of Russian tanks on the Bublitz railroad station in an all-day fight, then it returned to Drawehn. In an attempt to go back toward Bublitz the next day it came into a trap probably set just for it. Twenty T-34 tanks and 6 anti-tank guns had driven to the tracks and took it under concentrated fire. Soon it was made immobile and destroyed more and more.

PZ-L-5 went to Neustettin and escorted a gun transport from there to Belgard on the night of 26/27 February. Then it stayed - subordinated to the von Tettau Corps Group - in that area, took part in the defensive fighting around Köslin on 3rd March, and after the city fell on 4th March it returned to Belgard.

Volyn
Member
Posts: 455
Joined: 04 Jul 2018, 05:53
Location: USA

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#6

Post by Volyn » 02 Nov 2018, 19:36

hucks216 wrote:
02 Nov 2018, 18:52
PZ-L-5 went to Neustettin and escorted a gun transport from there to Belgard on the night of 26/27 February. Then it stayed - subordinated to the von Tettau Corps Group - in that area, took part in the defensive fighting around Köslin on 3rd March, and after the city fell on 4th March it returned to Belgard.[/i]
Great - do you know if there are any photos of PZ-L-5 available?

User avatar
hucks216
Member
Posts: 1936
Joined: 20 Jan 2007, 23:49
Location: England

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#7

Post by hucks216 » 02 Nov 2018, 22:21

Not in the book that I can see.

User avatar
audrew
Member
Posts: 638
Joined: 10 Apr 2009, 19:44

Re: Panzerzug - 1945

#8

Post by audrew » 12 Sep 2022, 08:34

Panzerzug Lehr 5
The armored train "Panzerzug 75" type BP-44 was handed over to the crew of the Wehrmacht on April 15, 1944, at the base of German armored trains at the Rembertów railway station. On July 15, it was ready to fight, and then assigned to the Army Group "Middle", from July 28, it operated in Modlin. After the outbreak of the uprising, stationed from August 5 at the Warszawa Gdańska railway station, he fired on the positions of the insurgents. While operating on the perimeter railway, it shelled the Old Town and Żoliborz as well as the positions of insurgents in other districts of Warsaw, including Powiśle. During the insurgent attack on the Gdańsk Railway Station on August 20-22, he significantly contributed to the failure of the attack, the purpose of which was to join insurgent troops from the Old Town with Żoliborz. In September 1944 he was stationed in Radom, renamed "Lehr Panzerzug 5" and directed to Milowice, then in February 1945 he was sent to the Army Group "Wisła". On March 5, during the retreat from Pomerania, it was destroyed near Białogard. Janusz Ledwoch: Panzerzüge. Warsaw: Militaria Publishing House, 2015, pp. 56-58. ISBN 978-83-7219-417-6.
In the summer of 1944, there was no Pz.Zg. 75.
The first Pz.Zg. 75 were built on April 15, 1944. Throughout the summer, it underwent tests and final training at the Reserve Unit of Armored Trains (Eisb.Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt.) In Rembertów - together with Pz.Zg. 74.
However, it was already called Panzer-Lehr-Zug Nr. 5, and the new (second) Pz.Zg. 75 at that time was being built.
Panzer-Lehr-Zug No. 5 (ex Pz.Zg. 75) in German documents it is called "Übungszug mit Besetzung Pz.Zg. 75" - meaning "training train with the crew of the armored train nr. 75", at least as it was defined in the documents by Major Becker, the commander of Eisb .Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt.
On July 24, 1944, by order of GA "Środek" part of Eisb.Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt. under the command of Major Becker, she was subordinated to the 73rd Infantry Division. This unit in the strength of the regiment included: part of the Eisb.Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt. Command, parts of the 1st and 2nd training companies, the entire 3rd training company, the entire backup company, Pz.Zg. 74, Panzer-Lehr-Zug No. 5 (ex Pz.Zg. 75). Pz.Zg. is also planned to be included. 30, but this was not realized.
On July 25, 1944, the command of GA "Środek" ordered Pz.Zg. 74 under the command of Lieutenant Höcker and Panzer-Lehr-Zug Nr. 5 (ex Pz.Zg. 75) under the command of Lieutenant Edom to subdue the 73rd Infantry Division in the southern part of the Warsaw suburbs.
On July 26, 1944, Pz.Zg. 74 was subordinated to Gren.Rgt. 173 (73. DP) and Panzer-Lehr-Zug No. 5 (ex Pz.Zg. 75) was subordinated to Gren.Rgt. 186 (73rd DP). Armored train no. 75 is referred to in the German documents of that period in several ways, with the name Pz.Zg. 75 functions in some of them all the time next to the new one, i.e. Panzer-Lehr-Zug Nr. 5, Lehr Pz. Zg or even Pz. Z G. 5, because it sometimes appears (although it is completely wrong). Gradually, however, during the uprising, Pz.L.Zug began to significantly dominate. 5. It is also known from the documents of 9 AOK that the crew of this train deployed accelerated combat platoons during the uprising. viaducts on the bypass railway line in Warsaw. On July 26, 75 was rather not subordinated to the 73rd Infantry Regiment, and more precisely to its 186th Infantry Regiment. We only know that on July 26, an order was actually issued to subordinate the train to this unit. However, there is no indication that this order was carried out. Most likely, this train remained in Rembertów until 30 July, it is not known whether it was due to the evacuation of Eisb.Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt. to the Czech Republic, we managed to complete a full combat crew on time. The 186th Infantry Regiment received such a section of defense that it would be somewhat difficult to support an armored train on its behalf (due to the arrangement of railway lines). Documents available today do not seem to confirm the participation of Pz.Zg. 75 in the fights with the Red Army at the end of July near Warsaw (although it cannot be ruled out that this train station supervises the railway line to Mińsk Mazowiecki), and as we know, from 25 or 26 July it operated in the 73rd DP Pz.Zg. 74, sent for reconnaissance of the Warsaw-Dęblin railway route. On the night of July 26-27, this train, among others he stopped at the Garwolin station (according to local sources, also at night of 25/26 July).
From the point of view of keeping order in the documentation of the command of the Wehrmacht armored trains, yes, from the point of view of historical analysis, also yes, but ... not necessarily. The soldiers of this train were the crew of the would-be train No. 75 - I suppose that when it entered the fight in the summer of 1944, some of the documents and stamps on the chancellery's equipment and in the documents of the soldiers of this sub-unit still featured the original designation for this train. The field mail number was probably given to this train twice, eventually 48073 only in September. It is no coincidence that in reports 9 AOK this train often appears in its original numbering, which suggests that it must have been used in parallel with the new, formally valid name. And if it was as I suppose, and in this case we are dealing with a transitional period and both names were in practical use, then there is probably no reason to believe that such spelling is somehow out of place. Although you are right in principle, of course, the name has been formally changed, some doubts arise as to the practice of its use. The most appropriate one seems to me to write "Panzer-Lehr-Zug 5 (originally Pz.Zg. 75)". The operational history of this train is interesting, among others, in the winter of 1945 in Western Pomerania. It is all the more pity that we currently lack more detailed data on this subject and do not have access to the activity log. And such a person could probably negate more than one piece of information provided in KTB 9 AOK, in which the writers often had a nasty tendency to miss reality. Panzerzug No. 75 in the light of the German documents of 06/08/1943, equipped, among others, with two 38t tanks (Czech) and Panhard draisines, planned completion date on 01/03/1944. in the documents of HGr Mitte of August 24 in the list of branches included in the 9th AOK there is also PzZg 75, and already on September 6 PzLehrZug 5.
In July, or even on August 4, 1944, the composition of the 9th AOK (as well as in the entire HGr Mitte) did not include the presence of PzZg 75 (or PzLehrZug 5). Before July 24, 1944, he no longer used the name Panzerzug 75, because on that day Major Becker (temporarily the commander of Eisb.Pz.Zug-Ers.Abt. In Rembertów) called him "Übungszug mit Besetzung Pz.Zg. 75" - that is, a train training course with the crew of armored train Nr. 75.
https://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=136559

Post Reply

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”