What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

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sitalkes
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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by sitalkes » 07 Dec 2018 04:07

I suppose they had the problem of hot electric engines, possibility of sparks, next to petrol, all sorted out?

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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by Yoozername » 07 Dec 2018 18:13

Basically, these AFV, like the Panthers, were being used in a field trial. They had many issues.

About the best use for them, IMO, would be as a means to stop the armored counter-attacks in the south part of Kursk. They were misused as battering rams and wasted. The Germans only had a few days to defeat an enemy they underestimated. The Soviets might have pulled back if there was a greater penetration in the south.

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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by hoot72 » 12 Feb 2019 06:36

Yoozername wrote:
27 Aug 2016 02:02
Title says it all. From reading 'Armor and Blood'...Showalter, it does seem that those Panzer Division, either assigned a Tiger coy. or possessing Tigers, did most of the useful hacking in the South part of the salient.

But, what if the Germans had concentrated ALL Tiger units, including the Ferdinands, into the south, and the North became more of a diversion? Model, in my mind, clearly had no real taste for attacking even with the heavy units assigned to his units. He seemed aware of dangers in this sector and probably would have liked more mobile units anyway.

Showalter does an OK job on this book, but it has some real technical groaners. Saying things like "topped up fuel tanks are a risk but tankers took them"...is patently wrong. It is actually safer to have a full tank. The book describes the grueling ordeal best at a orginizational level.
I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.

The Ferdinands, for all the negativitity a lot of people love to throw at them actually held the Northern Flank and had a 10-1 kill ratio. They should not have been sent out front but the real problem was, there simply was not enough tanks anyways in the German army to be able to conduct a dual offensive in the North and South.

The Ferdinands should have acted as a defensive screen alongside Stugs and older Panzer Iv's and iii'S in the North with a reserve of Tiger's in the event there was a Russian offensive in the North when Kursk kicked off.
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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by hoot72 » 12 Feb 2019 06:38

Yoozername wrote:
07 Dec 2018 18:13
Basically, these AFV, like the Panthers, were being used in a field trial. They had many issues.

About the best use for them, IMO, would be as a means to stop the armored counter-attacks in the south part of Kursk. They were misused as battering rams and wasted. The Germans only had a few days to defeat an enemy they underestimated. The Soviets might have pulled back if there was a greater penetration in the south.
Yes, this makes sense or kept them in reserve to fill gaps in the defensive line and to work in pairs as long range tank killers alongside PAK tank killers.
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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by hoot72 » 12 Feb 2019 06:44

Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?
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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by Yoozername » 13 Feb 2019 16:42

hoot72 wrote:
12 Feb 2019 06:44
Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?
Then how could you say this?
I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.

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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by hoot72 » 13 Jun 2019 11:24

Yoozername wrote:
13 Feb 2019 16:42
hoot72 wrote:
12 Feb 2019 06:44
Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?
Then how could you say this?
I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.
My confusion stemmed from the different divisions and actual types of tanks deployed.

My second comment with relation to the Ferdinand is factual. If the Ferdinands did not knock out the number of Russian tanks they did, it is very likely the Northern flank would have collapsed.
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Re: What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

Post by gracie4241 » 26 Jun 2019 16:23

The german tanks/anti-tank forces did sensationally well as is.The tank loss ratio was approximately 4-1 in their favor(against forewarned dug in defenses to boot!!!)There is good reason to believe another 6-10 divisions committed to Manstein's front as a reserve after the crushing german victory at Prohorakov(372 -72 tanks "Glantz") would have completely ruptured the Russian southern front and allowed him to roll up the rear of the northward facing soviet forces.These additional divisions were there.(12 mobile divisions in the Med alone, and some in the Kerch bridgehead area for example ) had they been made available before the attack.The germans at best had 200 tigers and they were fairly concentrated anyway.The real problem was that the soviet forces were stronger than anticipated as were their prepared positions.The germans did very well in fact and just needed a relatively few additional reserves to cleanly break through.In for a dime in for a dollar

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