East Prussia january 1945

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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 07 Oct 2018 07:37

Verpflegungsstärke includes subordinated units...

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Art
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 07 Oct 2018 07:38

FORBIN Yves wrote:
06 Oct 2018 11:32
and seems a lot seems impossible in january 1945 a ID to 16000 mens !
That's a ration strength with external units attached to divisions. Typical organic strength of the infantry division was 10-13 thousand men.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 07 Oct 2018 09:56

Art wrote:
07 Oct 2018 07:38
That's a ration strength with external units attached to divisions. Typical organic strength of the infantry division was 10-13 thousand men.
Yes here in 1943 with 7 Inf Bns : 13400 mens before have 7 with 17000 mens,
Mountains and light/Jager Divs have always 6 Inf Bns
A VolskGrenadier is a bit less numerous and powerful personnal quality is inferior in general, 12400 in 44

But possible Hiwis /Ost troops are added ? but for combat want nothing more willing to surrender

If one have more i try to have but not easy.


no 1700 ofc 17000
German Organization for Combat, 1944
https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Org ... for-Combat

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
07 Oct 2018 07:37
Verpflegungsstärke includes subordinated units...
Jan-Hendrik
What you means for 4th Army ?

FORBIN Yves
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 17 Dec 2018 16:02

Good German situational map of the 8 january for 2th Army but sadly don't appear Stug brigades there are the 507 Tiger Bn also interesting 627 Engineer Bde
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... rid/zoom/1
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/633771/map

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... rig627.htm
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Art
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 17 Dec 2018 19:27

FORBIN Yves wrote:
07 Oct 2018 09:56
But possible Hiwis /Ost troops are added ? but for combat want nothing more willing to surrender
They are shown in the column entitled "Osstruppen" (13 249 men total). Army Group Center as a whole reported about 22 000 men in Ost units and 57 000 Hiwis on 1 November 1944.
What you means for 4th Army ?
If a division have some attached units, for example artillery or pioneer battalion, then they are added to the ration strength. Hence ration strength is larger than organic strength.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 18 Dec 2018 11:15

Ok but i find more especialy 20th Pz Division present ! after to be destroyed to Bobruisk and in Rumania
With Army Group Center reserves deployed to Arys/Orzysz

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/5

But the 5 January 1945 transfered in Hungary the division was unloaded and immediately thrown into the fighting for the Gran bridgehead vs Russian 6 Guards Tank Army.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm

3 Panzer Army 1 - 20 january 1945
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/5

3 Panzer Army Panzer/Stug /Jpz 13 january 1945
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/5

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 20 Dec 2018 13:02

Nice stuff !

1944/45 Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring Corps assets
In theory but Flak Rgt had 76 x 88 mm guns !

1944/45 Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring

Ordered raised on 24.09.1944. It basically was the Fallschirm Pz Div Hermann Göring {abbreviated HG}, which, having grown over large and anyway getting somewhat unwieldy, was split into a Panzer Division (Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 HG) and a Panzer Grenadier Division (Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division 2 HG), with some units added, but organized only partially under the PzK (nA) organization. As usual with the Luftwaffe, there were differences. The Flak Regiment HG was used in place of an artillery regiment, and a Panzerjäger-Abteilung was raised. On the other hand, the FschPzK HG did not have a Korps-Fusilier-Rgt, (instead it had a motorized Korps-Sturm-Bataillon, while each division had a Fallschirm-Panzer-Fusilier-Bataillon), a heavy Panzer battalion, or a replacement regiment (although battalions were kept at divisional level). In addition, both divisions retained their two Panzergrenadier regiments. It was even planned to raise III. Battalions for the Panzergrenadier regiments of the PzG Div 2 HG.
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/45/45_pzk-hg.html
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donwhite
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 20 Dec 2018 23:06

Kamen Nevenkin notes in his book 'Fire Brigades' that one Flak Abteilung from the Regiment detached and accompanied HG 1 Pz Div south a few days after the Soviet Offensive commenced. Not sure of the comparative effectiveness of 88mm's in a traditional artillery role vis a vis weight of shell etc?

Cheers

Kelvin
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 21 Dec 2018 01:47

FORBIN Yves wrote:
20 Dec 2018 13:02
Nice stuff !

1944/45 Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring Corps assets
In theory but Flak Rgt had 76 x 88 mm guns !

1944/45 Fallschirm-Panzerkorps Hermann Göring

Ordered raised on 24.09.1944. It basically was the Fallschirm Pz Div Hermann Göring {abbreviated HG}, which, having grown over large and anyway getting somewhat unwieldy, was split into a Panzer Division (Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 HG) and a Panzer Grenadier Division (Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division 2 HG), with some units added, but organized only partially under the PzK (nA) organization. As usual with the Luftwaffe, there were differences. The Flak Regiment HG was used in place of an artillery regiment, and a Panzerjäger-Abteilung was raised. On the other hand, the FschPzK HG did not have a Korps-Fusilier-Rgt, (instead it had a motorized Korps-Sturm-Bataillon, while each division had a Fallschirm-Panzer-Fusilier-Bataillon), a heavy Panzer battalion, or a replacement regiment (although battalions were kept at divisional level). In addition, both divisions retained their two Panzergrenadier regiments. It was even planned to raise III. Battalions for the Panzergrenadier regiments of the PzG Div 2 HG.
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/45/45_pzk-hg.html

In actual equipment, Flak Regiment HG had 84 x 8.8 cm Flak AA guns on 01st Jan 1945 and each HG division had three 8.8 cm Pak.

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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 21 Dec 2018 11:26

donwhite wrote:
20 Dec 2018 23:06
Kamen Nevenkin notes in his book 'Fire Brigades' that one Flak Abteilung from the Regiment detached and accompanied HG 1 Pz Div south a few days after the Soviet Offensive commenced. Not sure of the comparative effectiveness of 88mm's in a traditional artillery role vis a vis weight of shell etc?

Cheers
I have and what book i hope a next for 1941 - 43 !

Kelvin
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 22 Dec 2018 03:19

I don't think so, the author is interested in years 1943-45. For study of Panzer divisons or PG divison, 1943-45 is very attractive than any period.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 22 Dec 2018 14:51

But one for next year sounds good ! very detailed still a bit expensive

Tank Battles in East Prussia and Poland 1944-1945
https://www.amazon.fr/Tank-Battles-Prus ... 1912174065

Igor Nebolsin is menber maybe ?

FORBIN Yves
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 22 Dec 2018 14:58

FORBIN Yves wrote:
18 Dec 2018 11:15
Ok but i find more especialy 20th Pz Division present ! after to be destroyed to Bobruisk and in Rumania
With Army Group Center reserves deployed to Arys/Orzysz

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/5

But the 5 January 1945 transfered in Hungary the division was unloaded and immediately thrown into the fighting for the Gran bridgehead vs Russian 6 Guards Tank Army.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm

Yes appear replaced by 5th Panzer but not to Arys to the north of Insterburg start to left 05/01 finished 09/01

Image

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 23 Dec 2018 08:37

GDiR offers so many documents regarding the battles in Ostpreußen...you can read for month...and for free!

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Kelvin
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Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 31 Jan 2019 03:54

Art wrote:
26 Jul 2018 21:22
Thanks for your help anyway.
Ok, here is an overview of armored vehicles in the HE Mitte (including XXVIII corps isolated at Memel) on 30.12.1944/15.1.1945 based on Panzer-lage, StuG lage, Pak (sf) lage etc from early February 45. Numbers given as operational + repair)

AOK 2

542 V.Gr.D – 2 Pz. III (l), 14 StuG. IV, (30.12) 1+1 Pak (Sf) Total 18
252 ID – 1+2 StuG.IV, (30.12) 4 Pak (Sf) Total 7
35 ID – 13 StuG. III, 3 Pak (Sf.) Total 16
5 Jg.D – 13+2 StuG. III, 3+1 T-34 Total 19
7 ID – 13+1 StuG.IV total 14
299 ID - 9+1 Stug.III Total 10
292 ID 8+2 StuG IV total 10
14 ID 11+2 StuG III Total 13
102 ID 10+2 StuG IV Total 12
7 PzD – (15.1) 1 Pz. III, 2 Flak.Pz. IV, 28+1 Pz.IV, 29+2 Pz. IV (70), 37 Pz. V, 1 Pz.Bef.III, 0+3 Pz.Beob. III, 1+1 T-34 (30.12) 13+1 Pak (Sf) Total 120

Sep. units:
s.Pz.Abt 505 51+4 Pz.VI (30.12) total 55
St.G.Br. 190 (30.12) 26 StuG.III, 6+1 StuH 42 Total 33
St.G.Br. 249 (30.12) 18+1 StuG.III, 8+1 StuH 42 Total 28
St.G.Br. 276 (15.1) 13+1 StuG. III, 7+4 StuH 42 Total 25
St.G.Br. 904 (15.1) 17+1 StuG.III, 13 StuH 42 Total 31
St.G.Br. 909 (15.1) 19+2 StuG. IV, 9 StuH 42 Total 30

Total 441

AOK 4

562 V.-Gr.D - 9+1 StuG III Total 10
541 V.Gr.D - 14 StuG IV Total 14
131 ID - 9 StuG IV Total 9
558 V.Gr. - 9 StuG III Total 9
170 ID - 3+4 StuG III Total 7
367 ID - 8+2 StuG III total 10
50 ID - 10 StuG III (30.12) 3+1 Pak (Sf.) Total 14
28 Jg.D – 10 Stug.III Total 10
21 ID - 2 StuG III Total 2
2 Fsch.Pz.Gr.D “HG” 29+2 StuG III total 31
61 ID - 5+2 StuG IV Total 7
1 Fsch.Pz.D “HG” - 27+8 Pz IV, 38+7 Pz.V, 3 Pz.Bef.IV, 2+2 Pz.Beob.IV (30.12) 1 Pak (Sf) Total 88
18 Pz.Gr.D - 2 Pz.Bef.III, 31 Stug.III, 2+1 StuH 42 Total 36

Sep. units:
Pz.K HG (corps troops) – 6 Pz.38(t) (30.12) 4+4 Pak (Sf), 13+5 JgPz IV total 32
St.G. Br. 185 - 20+2 StuG III, 5+1 StuH 42 total 28
St.G. Br. 209 - 15+1 StuG.III, 13 StuH 42 total 29
St.G. Br. 259 - 19+8 Stug.III, 12+3 StuH 42 Total 42
St.G. Br. 279 - 13+1 StuG. III, 5 StuH 42 Total 19
4./St.G.L.Br. 920 - (15.1) 6 StuG III Total 6

Total 403

Pz.AOK 3

549 V.-Gr.D - 4+2 StuG III Total 6
349 V.-Gr.D - 11+1 JgPz 38 Total 12
1 ID - 9+1 StuG III Total 10
69 ID - 10 StuG III Total 10
56 ID - 10 StuG III Total 10
561 V.Gr.D - 10 StuG III Total 10
548 V.Gr.D - 6 StuG IV Total 6
58 ID - 7+1 StuG III, 7 StuG IV, 1 StuH 42 Total 18
95 ID - 8 StuG III, 8 StuG IV, 3 Hetzer Total 19
5 Pz.D (15.1) 8+20 Pz.IV, 15+25 Pz.V, 2 Pz.Bef.III, 2 Pz.Bef.IV. 3+1 Pz.Beob.III, 0+1 Pz.Beob.IV, 1+4 StuG III (30.12), 9+1 Pak (Sf), 25+11 JgPz IV total 128

Sep. units:
s.Pz. Abt. 505 - 34+3 Pz.VI Total 37
s.Pz.Abt. 502 (at Memel) – 17+15 Pz.VI total 32
St.G. Br. 203 - 20+2 StuG III, 6+3 StuH 42 Total 31
St.G. Br. 232 - 21 StuG III, 8 StuH 42 total 29
St.G. Br. 277 - 12+3 StuG III, 10 StuH 42 total 25
St.G. Br. 278 (at Memel) - 17+2 StuG III, 7+1 StuG IV, 8+3 StuH 42 Total 38

Total 421

Under the Army Group or with unknown assignment:

Pz.Gr.D ”GD” 16+6 Pz.38(t), 2+2 Pz.IV, 56+5 Pz.V, 15+4 Pz.VI, 1 Pz.Bef. III, 2+1 Pz.Beob.III, 2 StuG. III, 1 StuH 42, 4 Pak (Sf) (+21 Pz IV (lg) shipped on 10.1) Total 117 (+21 arriving)
Pz.Gr.D “Brandenburg” - 21 StuG IV arriving (shipped on 1.1.45)
Pz.Abt. Fkl. 302 - 2 Pz.Bef.IV, 26+2 StuG III (attached to GD) Total 30
St.Pz.Abt 218 - 9+1 Pz.IV 15cm (attached to GD) Total 10
He.Art. Brig.88 - 6 Pz. IV, 2 Pz.Beob. III Total 8
Pz.Sich.Kp. 350 - 10 Pz.II Total 10
Pz.Jg.Abt 664 - 9 Hashorns Total 9
Pz.Jg.Kp 1233 9+1 StuG III Total 10
Stu.G.Abt. 1006(L) – 11 StuG III Total 11
1./Pz.Jg.Abt 741 – 12+2 JgPz 38 Total 14

Total 219 + 42 arriving

Arriving to the Army Group's area:
24 Pz.D (30.12) 1 Pz.III, 5+6 Pz.IV, 3+4 Pz.IVL70, 1+1 Pz.Bef.III, 1+0 Pz.Beob.III (30.12) 1+3 StuG. III, 2+2 StuH 42 (30.12) 17+4 JgPz.IV Total 51

So total well above 1500 tanks, assault guns and self-propelled guns operational or in repair. Of them 1 HG and Brandenburg divisions were transferred to Poland before being involved in any action, that is 88 AFV on hand plus 21 in transfer. I have only a vague idea if any about identity and location of some smaller units. What were exactly Pz.Jg.Kp 1233 or Stu.G.Abt. 1006(L), for example? Returning to the official Soviet history of WWII: the volume 10 estimated 700 tanks, SP and assault guns with German forces in Prussia. Those numbers became almost canonical but they are a gross underestimate as demonstrated above. Funny considering a common idea that Soviet histories always inflated German numbers.

Also a topic with somewhat different stats:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15588
Hi, Art, do you have strenght and departure data of Stu.Brig.Grossdeutschland in January 1945 ? It was attached to Pz.Gren. Div Br. Thank



Kelvin

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