Operation Wintergewitter

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 31 Aug 2017 16:44

marthus wrote:Hello
During the departure in the end of November, 1942 to join 57 PZK, 23 PZD had got back to Ssalsk (center of provisioning for the German troops operating in the Caucasus) 20 Pz IV with long canon, who were initially planned for 13 PZD. 17 and 23 PZD also got back tanks of 14 PZK (14, 24 PZD and 29 DIM) who were then in the repair shops of eétaient in repair of Kotelnikovo

I am French and I do not master well the Englishman, but I hope to be all the same understandable
Mais oui très bien, merci :)
FORBIN Yves
Location: FRANCE
Very interesting infos i understand why she have a very decent number of Panzer, you or someone else think number for 17th Pz i have mentionned * are good she come from GAC had sure the 28/06/42, 71 Pz
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/4 ... z-rgt.html

* 17. Panzer-Division : 4 Pz. II, 13 Pz. III K, 22 Pz. III L, 7 Pz. IV K, 9 Pz. IV L, 0 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 55 Panzer

marthus
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by marthus » 02 Sep 2017 19:08

17 PZD : 18/11/1942 ( Thomas L Jentz) = 9Pz II, 30Pz kz, 18Pz kz, 3Pz Bef

17 PZD : 18/12/1942 ( KTB 4th PZA-GA Don) = 20 Pz III L, 10 Pz III k, 10 Pz IV L, 4 Pz IV K, 3 Pz Bef

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 02 Sep 2017 22:46

FORBIN Yves wrote:
Mr.No one wrote:
FORBIN Yves wrote:
Mr.No one wrote:Correlation of Operational Tanks at the Outset of Operation Wintergewitter

German Forces, LVII. Panzer-Korps

11th December 1942

6. Panzer-Division: 19 Pz. II, 29 Pz. III K, 63 Pz. III L, 23 Pz. IV L, 4 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 138

23. Panzer-Division: 13 Pz. II, 18 Pz. III K, 26 Pz. III L, 12 Pz. IV K, 26 Pz. IV L, 2 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 97

Total Einsatzbereiten Panzern = 235

All the best,
Sean
Nice stuff but i have a doubt i have 2 number of tanks for 17th and 23th Panzer-Division

17. Panzer-Division : 4 Pz. II, 13 Pz. III K, 22 Pz. III L, 7 Pz. IV K, 9 Pz. IV L, 0 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 55

23. Panzer-Division: 5 Pz. II, 9 Pz. III K, 18 Pz. III L, 9 Pz. IV K, 21 Pz. IV L, 2 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 64
or 11 Pz. II, 30 Pz. III K, 18 Pz. IV , 3 Pz.Bef.Wg. = 62

And also for the 11th Pz arrive before Wintergewitter for Chir River battles to rfont 07/12 i have with total 75 Panzer if one have more please.

Thank you :)
Do you doubt the veracity of the number of operational tanks of 6. and 23. Panzer-Division on 11th December that I provided, or what are you in doubt about?

It all depends on which date you are looking at and from which headquarter your information stems from.

Cheers,
Sean
No but i have see others number and thinking after Caucasus she did don't have such number of tanks rather about a Bat ~ 60 tanks, so you confirm 97.

I have see a time a II/Lehr Bat with ~30 tanks take part to this Operation ?

Pz IV L for long gun ofc
Hi FORBIN Yves,

Yes, I confirm that 23. Panzer-Division reported to have 97 Einsatzbereite Panzer on 11th December 1942 :)

Attached to LVII. Panzer-Korps was Pionier-Bataillon (mot.) "Lehr" 1, so no tanks.

I would also like to update you all that, as mentioned at the start of this thread, I did a major project on Operation Wintergewitter. I am now in the process of converting my project into a book for publication and in is contact with a brilliant publisher to make this happen. At the moment, further research is also being carried out in the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv in Freiburg.

Cheers,
Sean
Believe in truth!

charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 05 Sep 2017 06:49

That sounds great Sean!! I would love to get a copy. Please let us know the publication details.
Thank you,
Charles

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Sep 2017 20:26

marthus wrote:17 PZD : 18/11/1942 ( Thomas L Jentz) = 9Pz II, 30Pz kz, 18Pz kz, 3Pz Bef

17 PZD : 18/12/1942 ( KTB 4th PZA-GA Don) = 20 Pz III L, 10 Pz III k, 10 Pz IV L, 4 Pz IV K, 3 Pz Bef
Yes but operationnal number of Panzer how many for total ? as you know for 23 Pz, 97 and 6th Pz, 139 Panzer arrived end november with 159 full .

charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 16 Sep 2017 01:05

I am specifically looking for the strength of the grenadier regiments of the 6. Panzer Division, by battalion if possible. I will take any format I can; eg: %, off/nco/mann, total, even the "strong" through "burned out" system. And while I'm at it: lmg, mortar, AT and Inf gun if I may. The date in particular would be the strength on the morning of 19.12.1942. Thank you in advance.

charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 23 Nov 2018 23:52

Sean: a long time ago you posted:

I found the following on self-propelled guns:
7.12.1942: 6. Pz.Div. reported 6 Pak Selbstfahrlafette
13.12.1942: 6. Pz.Div. reported 8 Pak 36 Selbstfahrlafette
13.12.1942: 23. Pz.Div. reported 12 Pak 40 Selbstfahrlafette

Source: RH 21-4/76 pp. 85 and 109."

I hope this thread has not withered, but it's been some time since posts. I would like to find more data on the German relief forces, especially 5. and 17. Pz Divisionen.

My question: your source: what is "RH 21-4" ??
So that I might research myself.

Thank you for any help
Charles

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Mr.No one
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Mr.No one » 09 Dec 2018 21:32

charles.sumpter wrote:
23 Nov 2018 23:52
Sean: a long time ago you posted:

I found the following on self-propelled guns:
7.12.1942: 6. Pz.Div. reported 6 Pak Selbstfahrlafette
13.12.1942: 6. Pz.Div. reported 8 Pak 36 Selbstfahrlafette
13.12.1942: 23. Pz.Div. reported 12 Pak 40 Selbstfahrlafette

Source: RH 21-4/76 pp. 85 and 109."

I hope this thread has not withered, but it's been some time since posts. I would like to find more data on the German relief forces, especially 5. and 17. Pz Divisionen.

My question: your source: what is "RH 21-4" ??
So that I might research myself.

Thank you for any help
Charles
Hi Charles,

RH 21-4/76 is the file signature of the documents containing the above info - from the German federal military archives, Militärarchiv-Bundesarchiv, in Freiburg.

Best regards
Sean ;-)
Believe in truth!

charles.sumpter
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by charles.sumpter » 11 Dec 2018 03:38

Thank you for responding. Unfortunately, as an aging USA Californian, I won't be making it to the Freiburg archives -- is there another way I might access? Thanks again

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 12 Dec 2018 09:29

FORBIN Yves wrote:
23 Aug 2017 11:20
And also for the 11th Pz arrive before Wintergewitter for Chir River battles to rfont 07/12 i have with total 75 Panzer if one have more please.
11 PzD had 76 operational tanks on 8.12.1942 according to this document:
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0302.jpg
Other pages:
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0303.jpg
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0304.jpg
http://www.maparchive.ru/images/phocaga ... l_0305.jpg

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Dec 2018 18:17

Thanks and good ! with also 57 PZK Pz Divisions

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 15 Dec 2018 15:38

On the other hand according to the 11 PzD's status report as of 1 December 1942 it had 49 Pz-III and 6 Pz-IV operational and 9 Pz-III and 2 Pz-IV in short term-repair:
download/file.php?id=419269&mode=view
No other types are mentioned. I strongly suspect that Pz-III in this document stands for long-barreled types only.
According to the organizational diagram as of 1 November 42 the division had (without the 1st battalion of the PzRgt 15):
18 Pz-II, 54 Pz-IIIl, 9 Pz-IIIk, 7 Pz-IV, 3 Bef.Pz.
download/file.php?id=410883&mode=view
Yentz gives 11 Pz-II, 49 Pz-IIIl, 9 Pz-IIIk, 6 Pz-IV, and 3 Bef.Pz operational in November 1942.
From comparison with other documents it appears that Yentz numbers don't include I/Pz.Rgt.15, although it's not explicitly mentioned in his book.
In general, different sources seem to fit more or less adequate, except Pz-II which somehow disappear without a trace.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by FORBIN Yves » 03 Jan 2019 12:18

Some questions please,

On this map http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... _ru/25.HTM

What means OPAB ? appear on the map with 76 FR

7 Tank Corps arrive in Rft 19 december i think, full 159 tanks 30/11 http://tankfront.ru/ussr/tk/tk07.html
with general reserves 01/12 http://bdsa.ru/состав-войск-(помесячный ... 1942-1871/ 3. РЕЗЕРВ СТАВКИ ВГК
but the 19/12 i have total or operational ? 92 tanks : 20 KV-1 + 41 T-34 + 20 T-70 if he don't have fight few… ?

2 GMC seems full when he arrive with 2 GA in rft ?

But i have find 4th Mechanized Corps report for 11 december :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Art
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Art » 04 Jan 2019 10:25

FORBIN Yves wrote:
03 Jan 2019 12:18
Separate machine-gun artillery battalion.

7 Tank Corps was involved in battle for Rychkovsky and Verkhne-Chirskaya on 13-15 December. According to an after-action report of the 5 Shock Army it lost 37 tank damaged and 16 burnt down, so about 100 stayed operational.

Max Payload
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Re: Operation Wintergewitter

Post by Max Payload » 04 Jan 2019 11:18

Art wrote:
04 Jan 2019 10:25
Separate machine-gun artillery battalion.
‘Machine-gun artillery’?
Is this a reference to the the mounted quad-Maxim anti-aviation weaponry?

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