Valkeasaari, June 1944

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Wolf
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Valkeasaari, June 1944

#1

Post by Wolf » 05 Jan 2019, 23:32

Image

I'm looking for a detailed description on the defences of JR1 at the time of the Soviet main attack. Especially the AT assets.

I have the Swedish version of Ilja Mosjtjanski's Schtrum "Karelskogo valla" (Karleska näset 1944 - slutstriden) which includes some information, including a map that suggests the area where JR1 had small villages called Old Valkeasaari, Olchovka and Aleksandrovka.

Here's a picture of what seems to be anti-tank obstacles, supposedly in the JR1 near Valkeasaari:

Image

source:
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-6808089

Simo Liikanen (Panssarinmurskaajat. Panssarintorjunta talvi - ja jatkosodassa) claims that there were a total of 18 anti-tank guns within the JR1 area. This correct?

Swing
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#2

Post by Swing » 06 Jan 2019, 09:22

To be honest, Mosjtjanski's book is a fake. Most detailed and truthful information about Vakkeasaari battle you can find here (see enclosure)
Anti-tank armaments:
14./JR 1 - 3x37 К/36, 3x37 К/34, 2x45 К/40 and 2x76 K/27
10.Tyk.K - 6x75 K/40
By the way, one of the Russian authors, farmer is a member of AHF. You can drop him a PM or send e-mail.
Attachments
Valkeasaari.jpg


Wolf
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#3

Post by Wolf » 06 Jan 2019, 20:14

Swing wrote:
06 Jan 2019, 09:22
14./JR 1 - 3x37 К/36, 3x37 К/34, 2x45 К/40 and 2x76 K/27
10.Tyk.K - 6x75 K/40
Thanks, Swing!

Any mention of 32. tykkikomppania?


(Sadly I don't speak, or really read, Russian... :/)

Wolf
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#4

Post by Wolf » 06 Jan 2019, 21:01


Swing
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#5

Post by Swing » 07 Jan 2019, 09:10

Wolf wrote:
06 Jan 2019, 20:14
Any mention of 32. tykkikomppania?
4х75 K/40 +2x37 К/36

I/32. Tyk.K (2x37 K) was in III/JR 58 sector (Hatsalanmäki), III/32.Tyk.K (2x75 K) was in I/JR 58 sector (Aleksandrovskaja), II/32.Tyk.K (2x75 K) was in reserve (Kuokkala)

Art
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#6

Post by Art » 07 Jan 2019, 12:46

Order of battle of the 10 Division also lists what they call "lohkoaseet". Weapons permanently installed in fortifications probably?

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JTV
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#7

Post by JTV » 07 Jan 2019, 20:35

Art wrote:
07 Jan 2019, 12:46
Order of battle of the 10 Division also lists what they call "lohkoaseet". Weapons permanently installed in fortifications probably?
At least some of the seem to be. 45 K/40-k is Finnish-built 45-mm bunker gun. some more info about it:
viewtopic.php?t=70091&start=1050

Also when it came to Finnish field army 7.92 kk/08 (German MG-08 Maxim) in its use were typically used in bunkers. 7.62 kk/09 would be standard 7.62 x 54R caliber Maxim m1910, which might in this case be installed into bunkers and various other field forficications (machinegun-nests, machinegun-cupolas, rotating machinegun-shields etc) - or not. It is known that Maxim m1910 were used in Finnish field fortifications at that time in large numbers, but they were also used by Finnish infantry in their regular role as heavy machinegun. Standard Finnish Continuation War era bunker mount was m/40, which had been designed to be compatible with both MG-08 or Maxim m/1910. MG-cupolas had either DT or m/1910, while rotating MG-shields were used with Maxims m/1910. It is worth noting that in general building of concrete bunkers to frontline was difficult due to constant enemy contact, so Finnish defenses in trench-war period frontline tended to be mostly field fortification variety - in other words structures build from wood and soil with things like rotating MG-cupolas and MG-shields sometimes installed in them.

Some previous discussion about Finnish cupolas:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=135776&p=1187164

37-mm antitank-guns (37 K/36 and 37 K/40) may simply have been used as dedicated direct-fire guns in frontline.

Jarkko

Art
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#8

Post by Art » 08 Jan 2019, 17:16

A simple question: who operated those weapons? When the 10 Division replaced the 18th were their crews replaced as well?

Tommy R
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#9

Post by Tommy R » 09 Jan 2019, 23:54

A map from "Kutsui ääni isänmaa JR58 1941-44" showing JR58s deployment around Rajajoki.
jr58.jpg
JR58 deployment.

Wolf
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#10

Post by Wolf » 10 Jan 2019, 18:52

Tommy R wrote:
09 Jan 2019, 23:54
A map from "Kutsui ääni isänmaa JR58 1941-44....
Great map, Tommy - thanks!

Is it known what Soviet forces were deployed against JR58 and roughly how the attack developed?

Mosjtajanski indicates it was the 109th Army Corps, but he also has "the Million Bunker" in the JR58 sector - supposedly this is a case of the author being confused with the Sj 5 bunker, Summa sector during the Winter War and a Soviet bunker captured by the Finns in 1941 and used as a command central by JR58's first company...

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#11

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Jan 2019, 18:57


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JTV
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#12

Post by JTV » 10 Jan 2019, 22:20

Art wrote:
08 Jan 2019, 17:16
A simple question: who operated those weapons? When the 10 Division replaced the 18th were their crews replaced as well?
As far as I know at least the weapons placed in permanent fortifications (*) were normally allocated to new unit along the fortifications to which they belonged. While I am not sure in what extent the same practice existed with field fortifications, in immediate frontline it would have made sense for the system to work in similar manner for the field fortifications as well, since replacing heavy weapons would have been difficult and dangerous. Hence when division was replaced, I would assume that the new division simply signed off the heavy weapons installed to fortifications in the sectors of frontline in which it took responsibility.

(*) Finnish military divided fortifications to two basic categories - permanent fortifications (kestolinnoite/kantalinnoite) which would include things like ferroconcrete bunkers built by special units and often already before the war vs. field forfications (kenttälinnoite) which included trenches, dug-outs, machinegun nests etc build from wood and soil typically by normal military units during the war.

Jarkko

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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#13

Post by Tommy R » 10 Jan 2019, 22:37

The bunker:
133325_r500.jpg
SA kuva: 126799
133325_r500.jpg (45.02 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
There are quite a lot of images from the area at SA-kuva.fi if you search for Rajajoki, mostly from 1943.

Tommy R
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Re: Valkeasaari, June 1944

#14

Post by Tommy R » 10 Jan 2019, 22:52

Image showing the relative strengths and the units involved in the initial attack:
Webp.net-resizeimage.jpg
Pg. 231 "Kutsui ääni isänmaan..."

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