At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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Michael Kenny
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Oct 2018 21:31

jesk wrote:
18 Oct 2018 21:13
[ He did not understand that a million German soldiers in Courland and Norway at the beginning of 1945 made it easier for the Soviet armies advance to Berlin.
There were over 100 active German Divisions in the field at surrender. The bulk were crammed into SE Europe when they ran out of places to hide. Why did these millions of soldiers (much nearer than the soldiers in Norway) not prevent the fall of Berlin?

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 18 Oct 2018 21:40

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Oct 2018 21:31
jesk wrote:
18 Oct 2018 21:13
[ He did not understand that a million German soldiers in Courland and Norway at the beginning of 1945 made it easier for the Soviet armies advance to Berlin.
There were over 100 active German Divisions in the field at surrender. The bulk were crammed into SE Europe when they ran out of places to hide. Why did these millions of soldiers (much nearer than the soldiers in Norway) not prevent the fall of Berlin?
Hitler insisted that the main blow Russians will inflict on Prague. At the end of March, from 9 army sent 3 divisions in Chech and Austria.

http://militera.lib.ru/research/toland1/03.html

Hitler did not look concerned at all.

— Anyway, Berlin will not be the main direction of approach — Hitler with confidence which to some extent shook Heynritsi noticed. — Berlin will be the minor purpose of approach of Soviets. The main blow will be directed to Prague.

Hitler's confidence was based on the report of the general R. Gelen, the chief of intelligence service of ground forces whose secret agents had the evidence that Stalin already gave the order to direct the main strike against Prague, generally because Bismarck told once that to take control of Prague — means to take control of Central Europe. To a certain degree Gelen's agents were right. They only did not know that Stalin's order was sharply opposed by Zhukov and other military leaders who insisted that Berlin had to become a main goal as there is Hitler. Thus, the Red Army actually prepared the most powerful blow against troops of Heynritsi.

Told Heynrits that as prompts it experience, Russians will attack for certain Berlin, and then began to speak about a "airborne" division of Goering which took positions on the line of defense of Berlin. [349]

— Soldiers are young, well armed — he told. — As a matter of fact, they are even excessively armed while the infantry on their flank lacks weapon.

Goering smiled as if he heard a compliment.

— However — continued Heynritsi — these parachutists have no experience. The most part from them had only two-week training, and pilots order them.

— My parachutists excellent soldiers! — Goering exploded.

— I have nothing against your soldiers, but they have no fighting experience yet — Heynritsi sharply objected. He turned to Hitler and reported that the group of Vistula armies has to be attacked just about and in the north. However Hitler counted it as impossible as the area withheld by the 3rd tank army Manteyfelya was flat and besides underwent flooding.

Heynrits ignored this remark and continued to insist on allocation of bigger number of soldiers for defense of the long front line. He emphasized that for day of fights the division loses about battalion of staff.


— You were given hundred thousand new soldiers — Hitler quietly told. — As for defense then you have to encourage troops, instill in them confidence, and then fight will be won.

When Heynritsi went out of the bunker, Hitler was in high spirits.

However Heynritsi was suppressed. He lost three divisions, and in exchange received only six battalions and 100 000 almost useless not fired fighters. And he still should keep Frankfurt.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 18 Oct 2018 21:49

Hitler thought Russians attack Czechoslovakia instead of Berlin!

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... edit-text=

Yodl made very curious confessions regarding the miscalculation of the German command in the period of Stalingrad, Kursk, Belorussian and other operations of the Soviet Armed Forces. So, he was forced to declare: in 1944, "the Russians achieved exceptional superiority." On the operations of 1945, Yodel said: “By the time the Russians went over to the last offensive, we were completely helpless. Initially it was assumed that the Red Army would deliver the main blow in the direction of Czechoslovakia, but here we miscalculated ... "

The development of operations on the Eastern Front in 1945 was primarily determined by the failure of the Ardennes counteroffensive (23). The Fuhrer by all means demanded that active measures be taken in Hungary with a view to reaching the Danube and the Drauva. Colonel-General Guderian, chief of the general staff of the land army, tried to object, to which Hitler replied: “You want to advance without oil — well, let's see what happens.”

In pursuance of this intention of the Führer, we had to weaken the grouping in the Berlin sector, and later it turned out that in Hungary the operation failed and did not release any forces to strengthen the cover of Berlin. Simultaneously, northeast of Berlin, Himmler did everything possible to worsen the position of his army group "Vistula".

Thus, by the time the Russians went over to the last offensive, we were absolutely helpless. Initially it was assumed that the Red Army would strike the main blow in the direction of Czechoslovakia, and we miscalculated here too. Had to throw the entire army of the reserve to the front, but this did not produce any results.

The defense of Berlin was carried out by clearly insufficient forces, but the high command did not have any opportunities to strengthen it, which led to the collapse.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 20 Oct 2018 20:57

1 Ukrainian front attacked on the site to the south of Spree. There the water district is comparable to Dunkirk, where Hitler forbade to use tanks. It was obvious that Soviets are attacked to the south of Spree, having used a water boundary for complication of an exit from an environment. At the same time, Spree covers the flank of tank armies from flank blow. The place of the main blow of 1 Ukrainian front was easily read; even the schoolboy could make the plan of approach, having become interested in military history. Words about the main blow to Prague, Hitler has deprived of Germans an opportunity to create strong defense in a strip of the Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland, where attacked 6 Soviet armies. Army Group "Center" was supposed to regroup, but hasn't made it because of expectations of offensive on Prague.

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... r45_lg.jpg

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4. Panzerarmee
Order of battle (12 Apr 1945)
LVII. Panzerkorps
- 6. Volks-Grenadier-Division
- 72. Infanterie-Division
Panzerkorps “Großdeutschland”
- Panzer-Grenadier-Division “Brandenburg”
- Divisionsstab z.b.V. 615
- Kampfgruppe 545. Volks-Grenadier-Division
- Panzer-Ausbildungs-Verband “Böhmen”
Korpsgruppe General der Artillerie Moser
- Division Nr. 193
- Division Nr. 404
- Division Nr. 463
V. Armeekorps
- 344. Infanterie-Division
- Kampfgruppe 36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
- 214. Infanterie-Division
- 275. Infanterie-Division
- Kampfgruppe 35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division

Image

jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 20 Oct 2018 21:05

The Red Army in general seems invincible, especially at the end of war. When in details investigate operations, primitive German mistakes emerge and a huge superiority in strength of the opponent on the direction of the main blow.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 20 Oct 2018 21:44

Korpsgruppe General der Artillerie Moser; was out of place

4. Panzerarmee
Order of battle (12 Apr 1945)
LVII. Panzerkorps
- 6. Volks-Grenadier-Division
- 72. Infanterie-Division
Panzerkorps “Großdeutschland”
- Panzer-Grenadier-Division “Brandenburg”
- Divisionsstab z.b.V. 615
- Kampfgruppe 545. Volks-Grenadier-Division
- Panzer-Ausbildungs-Verband “Böhmen”
Korpsgruppe General der Artillerie Moser
- Division Nr. 193
- Division Nr. 404
- Division Nr. 463
V. Armeekorps
- 344. Infanterie-Division
- Kampfgruppe 36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
- 214. Infanterie-Division
- 275. Infanterie-Division
- Kampfgruppe 35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division

Image

heretickle
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by heretickle » 21 Oct 2018 00:13

Failure to seize or annihilate the allies at Dunkirk.
Failure of Hitler to listen to his generals
Failure to fully support North African operations invade it, seize it, secure it; end the war.

jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 21 Oct 2018 06:03

Panzer-Grenadier-Division “Brandenburg”. from Oder to Olomouc; Hitler stole

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http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... burg-R.htm

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 21 Oct 2018 06:33

Korpsgruppe General der Artillerie Moser, at the beginning of April was in Cottbus, then, following Hitler’s instructions on the main attack in Czech, moved 100 km south to Löbau. 4 divisions before the onset of the offensive Hitler removed from the main blow of 1 Ukrainian Front.

Image

Image

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... r404-R.htm

Kelvin
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Kelvin » 22 Oct 2018 04:53

heretickle wrote:
21 Oct 2018 00:13
Failure to seize or annihilate the allies at Dunkirk.
Failure of Hitler to listen to his generals
Failure to fully support North African operations invade it, seize it, secure it; end the war.
Given German weakness in naval support, like lack of landing ships, and many many warships, fully invasion of North Africa only led to somewhat Tunis disaster. North African campaign is waste of resoures. You need to calculate how much money and how much resources did US spend for war as she came from a long way from America. Tunisian campaign was avoidable.

Leprechaun
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Leprechaun » 22 Oct 2018 08:25

Day one they had no idea how to wage a war, their economy was never geared up to fight a prolonged war they couldn't even keep up with tank production to cover their losses or motorise there armies.

Kelvin
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by Kelvin » 22 Oct 2018 09:14

Leprechaun wrote:
22 Oct 2018 08:25
Day one they had no idea how to wage a war, their economy was never geared up to fight a prolonged war they couldn't even keep up with tank production to cover their losses or motorise there armies.
The German was too proud of their military excellence and forget some ingredients for modern war e.g arms production.

jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 22 Oct 2018 09:53

The economy is very indirectly correlated with the causes of the defeat of Germany. It is more interesting to consider the placement of divisions by area. Could a German infantryman from Italy shoot a Soviet soldier in the head? Obviously not.

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jesk
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by jesk » 22 Oct 2018 10:14

Yes, need an encyclopedia of Hitler's sabotage. Instead of really important issues, trifles have been discussed for years. For example, on April 4, 1945, Hitler announced the revealed intentions of the enemy to strike the main blow in Czechoslovakia. I can not find the sources where this event which weakened the defense of Berlin is in detail considered.

AriX
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Post by AriX » 07 Jan 2019 14:59

I think Battle over Britain was that point. If GB fall, soviets would fight without american aid. No powder, no explosives, ni avgas, no trucks, no..etc.

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