Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
David1819
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 08 Jun 2014 00:47

Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by David1819 » 05 Jan 2019 15:19

Adolf Hitler's Letter to Benito Mussolini Explaining the Invasion of the Soviet Union

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Adolf_Hi ... viet_Union

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 Jan 2019 20:24

Somehow, Hitler had to invade USSR in order to force UK to a peace.
But Stalin was not going to invade Europe...

It is just a pretext given by Hitler to his "ally" Mussolini...

Hitler didnt even warn his "ally" that he was invading USSR. Notice the date of the letter : the very day of the attack !

AriX
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 08:07
Location: Ukraine

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by AriX » 07 Jan 2019 18:33

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:24

But Stalin was not going to invade Europe...
Off course, he didnt. He just increased the strenght of the Red Army in 3 times from 1939 to 1941, and put it on the west border in offensive position. What a moron he was, no? :milwink:

Peter89
Member
Posts: 252
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Hungary

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by Peter89 » 08 Jan 2019 20:58

Stalin took every opportunity he could to increase his empire.

I think he waited for the time when he could grab pieces after pieces out of Europe, which he actually has been doing since 1939. The future events shadowed the fact that USSR annexed a huge part of Eastern and Northern Europe. Maybe Stalin waited for the time when the Nazi Germany and the British Empire exhaust each other.

AriX
Member
Posts: 69
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 08:07
Location: Ukraine

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by AriX » 08 Jan 2019 21:36

Hitler wanted to get back all german lands, which Germany lost after WW1. Stalin wanted to get back all lands which belonged to Russian Empire before 1917. Ant strike 3rdReich as his most danger opponent on the cbc ontinent.

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1418
Joined: 04 Jun 2007 11:22
Location: North

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by j keenan » 08 Jan 2019 23:19

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:24
Somehow, Hitler had to invade USSR in order to force UK to a peace.
Hitler's invasion of Russia had nothing to with forcing the UK into a peace deal

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 09 Jan 2019 01:11

AriX wrote:
07 Jan 2019 18:33
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:24

But Stalin was not going to invade Europe...
Off course, he didnt. He just increased the strenght of the Red Army in 3 times from 1939 to 1941, and put it on the west border in offensive position. What a moron he was, no? :milwink:
Oh... did Stalin invade Gemany or did Hitler invade USSR in 1941 ?
Hitler did. Of course, like in Poland, Hitler had to introduce himself as the victim in the german propaganda, so the pretext was "Stalin was going to attack us!".
We know it is a lie.
j keenan wrote:
08 Jan 2019 23:19
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
05 Jan 2019 20:24
Somehow, Hitler had to invade USSR in order to force UK to a peace.
Hitler's invasion of Russia had nothing to with forcing the UK into a peace deal
Really ? Hitler wasnt interesting in dealing peace with UK ?
Hitler feared that the USA wd enter the war to help its birtish ally. That's why he wanted to deal a peace with them. But as long as Churchill was PM, he could not. In order to overthrow Churchill from his throne, he had to conquer USSR. With a Germany dominating Europe from Brest to the Volga, the Brits would have deal a peace. This would have prevented a war with the USA.

histan
Member
Posts: 1471
Joined: 14 Jan 2008 17:22
Location: England

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by histan » 09 Jan 2019 02:22

I think Hitler's motives were complicated.

He had to deal with the Soviet Union at some time, to destroy Russia and obtain the territories in the East that he believed Germany needed. That was his primary goal.

The question focuses on when.
He believed that the UK thought that Russia might become an ally and that if he defeated Russia that would force the UK to negotiate a peace and thus the war in Europe would be over.
He was concerned that if he continued to be largely occupied with fighting the UK, Russia would try to exert leverage dominance over Rumania, etc depriving him of valuable resources. Not necessarily that they would actually attack Germany in the immediate future.
He was concerned about the morale of the German people. If he delayed to 1942 or 1943 would they support a war against Russia. If he achieved a peace with the UK would they support a new war. If he hadn't achieved peace then the euphoria of the victories of 1939 - 1940 would have begun to fade and the hardships of war would be being felt, would they support him in a new uncertain venture?

I am sure there were probably more concerns in his mind at the time.

Regards

John

User avatar
Robert Rojas
Member
Posts: 2658
Joined: 19 Nov 2002 04:29
Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.

RE: Was Hitler And The Wehrmacht Anticipating And Fearing A Soviet Invasion?

Post by Robert Rojas » 18 Jan 2019 02:18

Greetings to both citizen David 1819 and the community as a whole. Howdy David (or Dave if you so prefer)! Well sir, in light of you introductory posting of Saturday - January 05, 2019 - 6:19am, in terms of the political and military realities of year 1941, old yours truly is of the school of thought that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was NOT planning for any sort of pre-emptive strike against both National Socialist Germany and its collaborators in the Axis Alliance. I would assert (RIGHTLY of WRONGLY) that the incremental military buildup in the Western Soviet Union was. in part, a reaction to the Wehrmacht's swift and spectacular victories in Scandinavia, Western Europe, Yugoslavia and Greece. The General Secretary's strategic military planners had not reckoned on the technical success and speed of the BLITZKRIEG. By and large, the Soviet Military Establishment was ostensibly playing catch up with its defensive preparations in reaction to the growing threat from the West. It should be remembered that the Red Army was going through an institutionally wide reorganization when Operation Barbarossa was initiated on June 22, 1941. A military institution caught flat footed during the middle of a force reorganization is hardly indicative of an Army that was in the final stages of preparation to mount effective combat operations against Romania, East Prussia and the Government General of German occupied Poland. Conversely, one must ask the question about the veracity of the all knowing Bohemian Corporal's genuine "fear" of his eugenic and ideological enemy to the EAST. After all, knowledge is power and Adolf Hitler's overall intelligence about the peoples, places and things of the greater Soviet State bordered on criminal negligence. The only empirical evidence that the Wehrmacht retained about the OFFENSIVE capability of the Red Army was its less than stellar combat record of the very recent Russo-Finnish War. The Red Army's battlefield performance did not exactly impress the all knowing Bohemian Corporal. Adolf Hitler's contemptuous ignorance about the potential wherewithal of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is painfully reflected with HIS following quote: "YOU ONLY HAVE TO KICK IN THE DOOR AND THE WHOLE ROTTEN STRUCTURE WILL COME CRASHING DOWN". That is certainly not a comment from an individual who retains OR retained any fear of the Soviet Military Establishment. In reiteration, neither Adolf Hitler nor his strategic military planners were anticipating, much less fearing, an onslaught from the EAST. Well, those are my two initial two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this exercise down speculation lane - for now anyway.
In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: RE: Was Hitler And The Wehrmacht Anticipating And Fearing A Soviet Invasion?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 18 Jan 2019 22:50

Once again, Bob, you are absolutely right !

User avatar
redcoat
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: 03 Mar 2003 21:54
Location: Stockport, England

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by redcoat » 18 Jan 2019 23:21

histan wrote:
09 Jan 2019 02:22
I think Hitler's motives were complicated.

He had to deal with the Soviet Union at some time, to destroy Russia and obtain the territories in the East that he believed Germany needed. That was his primary goal.

The question focuses on when.
He believed that the UK thought that Russia might become an ally and that if he defeated Russia that would force the UK to negotiate a peace and thus the war in Europe would be over.
He was concerned that if he continued to be largely occupied with fighting the UK, Russia would try to exert leverage dominance over Rumania, etc depriving him of valuable resources. Not necessarily that they would actually attack Germany in the immediate future.
He was concerned about the morale of the German people. If he delayed to 1942 or 1943 would they support a war against Russia. If he achieved a peace with the UK would they support a new war. If he hadn't achieved peace then the euphoria of the victories of 1939 - 1940 would have begun to fade and the hardships of war would be being felt, would they support him in a new uncertain venture?

I am sure there were probably more concerns in his mind at the time.

Regards

John
Even with Soviet imports Greater Germany was suffering an oil deficit, if Germany was going to invade the Soviet Union it needed it to be in 41 before the deficit started having a profound effect on Germanys oil stockpiles

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 718
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 19 Jan 2019 09:48

redcoat wrote:
18 Jan 2019 23:21
histan wrote:
09 Jan 2019 02:22
I think Hitler's motives were complicated.

He had to deal with the Soviet Union at some time, to destroy Russia and obtain the territories in the East that he believed Germany needed. That was his primary goal.

The question focuses on when.
He believed that the UK thought that Russia might become an ally and that if he defeated Russia that would force the UK to negotiate a peace and thus the war in Europe would be over.
He was concerned that if he continued to be largely occupied with fighting the UK, Russia would try to exert leverage dominance over Rumania, etc depriving him of valuable resources. Not necessarily that they would actually attack Germany in the immediate future.
He was concerned about the morale of the German people. If he delayed to 1942 or 1943 would they support a war against Russia. If he achieved a peace with the UK would they support a new war. If he hadn't achieved peace then the euphoria of the victories of 1939 - 1940 would have begun to fade and the hardships of war would be being felt, would they support him in a new uncertain venture?

I am sure there were probably more concerns in his mind at the time.

Regards

John
Even with Soviet imports Greater Germany was suffering an oil deficit, if Germany was going to invade the Soviet Union it needed it to be in 41 before the deficit started having a profound effect on Germanys oil stockpiles
Hitler could have invaded Romania instead of USSR. Romania could give him 8 millions of tons of oil.

But did you notice that, despite this "lack of oil", german forces still fight all over the world till 45 ?
I fear this "lack of oil" is pretty much exagerated indeed.

User avatar
redcoat
Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: 03 Mar 2003 21:54
Location: Stockport, England

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by redcoat » 19 Jan 2019 17:02

Even in 42 oil restrictions were having a major restriction on German military actions, that why they focused solely on the Southern front, they did have the fuel to go on offensive operations with all three army groups.

User avatar
Robert Rojas
Member
Posts: 2658
Joined: 19 Nov 2002 04:29
Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.

RE: Was Hitler And The Wehrmacht Anticipating And Fearing A Soviet Invasion?

Post by Robert Rojas » 19 Jan 2019 19:51

Greetings to both citizen David Frankenberg and the community as a whole. Howdy David (or Dave if you so prefer), in respect to your posting of Saturday - January 19, 2019 - 12:48am, as history and internal Romanian politics would have it, National Socialist Germany would find it wholly unnecessary to forcibly occupy and subjugate the nation of Romania. The nation of Romania would subsequently join the Axis Alliance on November 23, 1940. Incidentally, not only was Romania a commercial supplier of natural petroleum to National Socialist Germany, it was also a commercial supplier of natural petroleum to Fascist Italy as well. It is also my understanding that neutral Turkey was also an occasional customer for Romania's black gold. Now, I will forego interjecting myself into any discussion OR discussions gravitating upon pumping output and refinery capacity. The neighborhood-at-large has more than its fair share of self appointed experts who will more than happily cite both chapter and verse on such ESOTERIC matters right down to the last Liter or Imperial Gallon of distilled fuel. On the issue of fuel availability, I am somewhere in a GREY AREA between citizen Redcoat's perspective and your perspective. Were there bona fide fuel shortages which would subsequently impact on going and future Axis military operations? MOST CERTAINLY! Like yourself, I also have reservations about the dire nature of those very real shortages. Thanks to not only Romanian petroleum, one cannot discount what the Nation of Hungary is also producing from its own natural oil fields and remember, the nation of Hungary joined the Axis Alliance on November 20, 1940. Finally, desperation, like necessity itself, is also the mother of invention. One cannot overlook National Socialist Germany's own domestic synthetic fuel program. So Dave, when you add these factors together, it is not all that terribly surprising that National Socialist Germany was able to muddle through until year 1945 - even with the preponderance of the Luftwaffe being grounded due to the subsequent lack of fuel. Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this de facto WHAT IF topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might find yourself on Terra Firma.


Bets Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

jesk
Banned
Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: Was Hitler and the Wehrmacht anticipating/fearing a Soviet invasion?

Post by jesk » 20 Jan 2019 09:29

redcoat wrote:
19 Jan 2019 17:02
Even in 42 oil restrictions were having a major restriction on German military actions, that why they focused solely on the Southern front, they did have the fuel to go on offensive operations with all three army groups.
Since 2003 at a forum and views stiffened in elementary school. Already on December 5, 1941, prior to the Soviet counter-offensive near Moscow, Hitler declared the Caucasus as a main goal of 1942. About any fuel the speech was not.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”