Romanian Flak in 1940

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CNE503
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Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 30 Nov 2018 12:48

Hello,

According to the attached document (NARA T501 R272 file 370), the Luftverteidigungskommando Ploesti deployed as of late October 1940 had authority over a German AAA grouping and a Romanian one.
If I have no difficulty to read the German signs, it is quite hard to understand what they referred to when applied to Romanian units.
For instance, what were the three four-"gun" "batteries" (numbered 201, 218 and 225) whose symbol was two vertical bars with two little circles aside?
Also, do you know the meaning of "Demiefix" (half-static?)? And lastly, what was the meaning of the figures "12-6" under the two searchligh batteries (252 and 261)?

Thank you for your help.
Regards,

CNE503
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Dili
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Dili » 03 Dec 2018 21:33

-225,218,201 maybe some sot or mobile two tubes light gun. Just a guess.

Demiefix is indeed halfstatic - i suppose this can go from no organic transport to be bolted in cement but that usually is said to be static. The other battery 52 is said to be towed.

Dunno about searchlights

Edit:
https://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=37 from came up the idea that might be searchlights plus watch posts



Thanks for this info.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 16 Dec 2018 10:56

Thank you!
It's weird, I didn't find any tactical symbols that fit with these ones. You're probably right concerning the fact that it should have been MG AAA units and watch posts.
Regards!

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Gonzosft
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Gonzosft » 30 Dec 2018 14:12

when in look in this map, i see Vicker 7.5. that looks like a heavy british maschine gun
then is see 2 KZ S8. That can be a towing truck Opel Blitz 1,5t KzS 8
The details about lei. Flak can be found here
http://www.ww2.dk/ground/flak/abt/le861.html

Denniss
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Denniss » 31 Dec 2018 00:18

Romania had 7.5cm Vickers AA guns built there in license. Due to connections with France they may also have had some large caliber french AA guns.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 02 Jan 2019 15:31

Yes, there were three batteries equipped with four English Vickers-Armstrong Model 1931 75mm AA guns each (1st, 16th and 21st batteries). A license was bought in 1939 to build a hundred of these in Romania.
One of them appeared to be equipped with four old French 75mm AA guns (52nd battery). The term "remorca" (towed) led me to think that it was probably "autocanon de 75mm modèle 1913" (75mm AA self-propelled gun model 1913) of this kind: http://basart.artillerie.asso.fr/articl ... ticle=1120. But it might have been Schneider 75mm AA towed gun model 1917.
The 83rd battery was "half-static" (but I don't know what type were its guns), and the 147th battery comprised not four but eight guns: four medium (75mm?) and four light (probably Bofors 40mm, but it could either have been German ones of this caliber or French ones of 25mm, 72 being bought before June 1940).

I'm still not sure about the three weird batteries (201st, 218th and 225th), probably equipped with heavy machineguns (probably French ones of 13,5mm, 200 were bought before June 1940).

Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Tony Williams
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Tony Williams » 09 Jan 2019 05:01

Romania reportedly ordered 37 mm AA guns from both Hotchkiss and Schneider, but I don't know if they received any.
Military Guns & Ammunition website https://quarryhs.co.uk

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 11 Jan 2019 21:00

French AA guns were 25mm Hotchkiss (concerning antiaircraft artillery, Schneider produced only 75mm guns), not 37mm. A deal was contracted with Germany for 3,7cm AA guns produced by Rheinmetall. Romania did receive some of them prior to November 1940. The battery is probably equipped with these guns, or 40mm Bofors model 1930. These two models were the only ones of intermediate caliber in service in the Romania AAA at this time.

CNE503
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Tony Williams
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Tony Williams » 12 Jan 2019 10:03

From my forthcoming book, following much research:

Schneider 37 mm Mle 1930: 37 x 296R ammunition.

This little-known gun emerged in 1930 but at first the French Army showed no interest, the gun being made only for an export sale to Romania (but see the note on the 37 mm Hotchkiss below). Official attitudes changed in the late 1930s as a result of the Spanish Civil War, during which the importance of automatic cannon against low-flying aircraft became evident. While preferring the 40 mm Bofors, the Army placed an interim order for 700 of the 'Mitrailleur de 37mm Schneider modèle 1930'. Even this was too late; production and other difficulties at the factory meant that only twenty mountings were delivered by May 1940 and these were allocated to the defence of Paris so saw no action. None of them appears to have survived the war. The gun had an L/45 barrel and was stated to fire at 175 rpm.

also:

Hotchkiss 37 mm: 37 x 208 ammunition (probably).

This rather mysterious gun competed with the 37 mm A.N., the 37 mm Schneider and the 40 mm Bofors for the ACAD contract. This may have been the same gun as the one being considered during the same period for the Hotchkiss zénithaux (zenith), a proposed 37 mm four-barrel naval mounting only capable of high-angle fire, for use against dive bombers. Photos also exist of single and twin land mountings of what is stated to be a 37 mm Hotchkiss sold to Romania (although some sources say that Romania bought the 37 mm Schneider; possibly both were acquired). This appears to have been a scaled-up version of the 25 mm Mle 1938/39 AA gun. The usual top-mounted Hotchkiss box magazines were used, with one interesting addition: a second magazine could be installed behind the one feeding the gun, so arranged that when an emptied magazine was removed, the one behind slid down a pair of tracks into the feeding position, thereby minimising the interruption to firing. Presumably this only worked at rather low elevations. In the naval ACAD trials the gun had a cyclic rate of 144 rpm, or 96 rpm for longer bursts allowing for the rapid magazine change. No further details are known, not even the ammunition used, although scale drawings exist of a rimless 37 x 208 Hotchkiss round from this period, which is the only known candidate.
Military Guns & Ammunition website https://quarryhs.co.uk

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 12 Jan 2019 10:40

Ok, thank you for these informations. I guess that the number of these guns sold to Romania were very low, and maybe they were used as AAA for ships.
My research in French about these guns led me to think that they were designed to equip ships rather than being ground-based. The "ACAD contract" was a purely naval contract made for the Marine nationale, ACAD meaning "Automatique Contre Avions Double" (double automatic weapon against aircrafts). You have a picture of a 37mm ACAD model 1935 Hotchkiss on the following photograph: https://clausuchronia.wordpress.com/201 ... tionale-3/ (search "Canon de 37mm ACAD modèle 1935").

Dozens of "mitrailleuse de 37mm Schneider modèle 1930" seemed to have been sold to Romania but only 20 were in service in the French army in April 1940. The following article from the Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII just mentions that Romania ordered it but nothing about the effective figures that were delivered: https://books.google.fr/books?id=MuGsf0 ... 30&f=false

The contracts for AA guns with Romania during the late 1930s until June 1940 that are better-known were Vickers 75mm, Hotchkiss 25mm (and also a lot of 13,2mm machineguns) and Rheinmetall 3,7cm.
My assessment is that the batteries mentionned by the Germans were probably equipped with German 3,7cm or Bofors 40mm, but I may be wrong.

I will dig deeper concerning these french AA guns, especially the Schneider ones.
Thanks again!
Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2019 10:49

Hi Guys,

Romania produced 200 75mm Vickers anti-aircraft guns. The machine tools from this project came in useful later in building the Resita 75mm anti-tank gun.

About half the AAA defences of the Ploiesti oil fields were Romanian.

Cheers,

Sid.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 12 Jan 2019 10:52

Hello Sid,

The contract for these Vickers 75mm AA guns was made for 100 guns (two-thirds being produced by the romanian Resita company). But indeed, this limited license wasn't followed and Romania acquired or produced far more than these 100 guns.
This type of weapons doesn't raise problems, being quite well-known. This is not the case at all for the intermediate caliber guns (37-40mm)...

Can you read better than I could the organization table at the start of the thread? Especially the weapons that equipped the Romanian 147th Battery late 1940?

Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Tony Williams
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Tony Williams » 12 Jan 2019 11:05

CNE503 wrote:
12 Jan 2019 10:40
Ok, thank you for these informations. I guess that the number of these guns sold to Romania were very low, and maybe they were used as AAA for ships.
You may well be right - a lot of countries were buying batches of automatic cannon to try them out at that time.
I will dig deeper concerning these french AA guns, especially the Schneider ones.
Please do - I will be interested to hear what you can find out!

You may find this article on my website to be of interest: http://quarryhs.co.uk/37mmFrench.pdf
Last edited by Tony Williams on 12 Jan 2019 12:43, edited 1 time in total.
Military Guns & Ammunition website https://quarryhs.co.uk

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by Sid Guttridge » 12 Jan 2019 11:10

Have you tried asking on the "Romanian Military History Forum"?

http://www.worldwar2.ro/forum/

Cheers,

Sid.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Flak in 1940

Post by CNE503 » 12 Jan 2019 11:20

Yes, but I experience difficulties to connect and post messages. It takes a very long time and I can't do any research in spite of having suscribed and being a member of the member...

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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