Yep, three shy of treason.Takao wrote: ↑15 Jan 2019, 03:47I believe that the Chicago Daily Tribune covered this on December 4, 1941, under the giant headline "FDR's WAR PLANS!"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2815901/posts
What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Hitler depended on blockade. The USN in full war mode made that impossible.Erwinn wrote: ↑23 Jan 2019, 10:36Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:15
- Location: Canada
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Most of the USAAF bombs fell in the last 12 months of the war, when the US was well in. So the bombing campaign was not a lynchpin of US involvement until then. They really didn't have much of bombing force there until 1943, when even then it was hit for six.Erwinn wrote: ↑23 Jan 2019, 10:36Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.
That being said the bombing force was only incidental to Luftwaffe losses immediately prior to D-Day. The critical factor was the intensive fighter sweeps Jan-June 1944. The Luftwaffe was losing an average of 50% of its fighter strength every month at that point. An unsustainable figure.
In any case war with Germany by 12/41 was inevitable. Perhaps a month or two delay if Hitler kept schtum but not much longer.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
You mean the declaration of war?OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 02:40And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Yeah. Lazy writing, but I can't use my left arm right now.Futurist wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 02:55You mean the declaration of war?OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 02:40And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
OK.OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 04:33Yeah. Lazy writing, but I can't use my left arm right now.Futurist wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 02:55You mean the declaration of war?OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 02:40And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
Also, how exactly would a "declaration of war short of war" be meaningfully different from an actual declaration of war?
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Who was the Sphinx?OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 05:09"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
Also, would the US have helped the USSR as much as it did in real life in early 1942 if FDR didn't have a DoW yet?
- Robert Rojas
- In memoriam
- Posts: 2658
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 05:29
- Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.
- Contact:
RE: What If: Adolf Hitler Did Not Declare War On The United States Of America.
Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer). Well sir, in light of your posting of Wednesday - January 23, 2019 - 7:29pm, it is NOT the intention of old yours truly to speak for brother Opana Pointer, BUT as far as I know, THE SPHINX was a NICKNAME for President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Futurist, you are quite a learned fellow and I find it nothing short of incredulity that you would be questioning the resolve of the United States of America's continuing the flow of material support to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in year 1942 even without a formal Declaration of War by the United States Congress. Now, it's not exactly a state secret that the preponderance of the AMERICAN LEFT had a misguided love affair with the world's premier "Workers Paradise". On June 22, 1941, the clearly ANTI+WAR LEFT literally changed its tune in a fore night and became the loudest drum beaters for active American involvement in the European conflict. Given the OLD LEFT'S inordinate influence within the Democrat Party, the Labor Movement and the halls of Academia, it is extremely doubtful that there would ever be any slackening of material support for ever kindly old Uncle Joe. Needless to say, as brother T.A. Gardner has more than rightly pointed out, unrestricted submarine warfare would eventually drag the Roosevelt Administration screaming and kicking into the European conflict - especially if the naval casualty was a ship of the line. Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs and kopecks worth this sojourn into The Twilight Zone - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of Orange County that is the Magic Kingdom of Disneyland.
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
This topic is about how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America, not about if U.S would declare war on Germany if Hitler didnt.Read the title carefullymaltesefalcon wrote: ↑16 Jan 2019, 02:02
If you do not feel we should be able to make intelligent counterarguments to your proposal, you may not find this subforum to your liking.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
There's a book on FDR entitled THE SPHINX, a very interesting read.Futurist wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 05:29Who was the Sphinx?OpanaPointer wrote: ↑24 Jan 2019, 05:09"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
Also, would the US have helped the USSR as much as it did in real life in early 1942 if FDR didn't have a DoW yet?
Why would we not help them? Every Nazi they killed was one less we'd face, the polls confirmed that was the public's opinion.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:15
- Location: Canada
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
One might ask you to do the same thing. The title is What if: "Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A."AriX wrote: ↑27 Jan 2019, 01:11This topic is about how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America, not about if U.S would declare war on Germany if Hitler didnt.Read the title carefullymaltesefalcon wrote: ↑16 Jan 2019, 02:02
If you do not feel we should be able to make intelligent counterarguments to your proposal, you may not find this subforum to your liking.
It is not how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America etc
Your topic should have been something along the line "What If USA focusses only on Japan after Pearl Harbor attack."
One more thing. I'm not the only one that posted alternative scenarios to your topic, but you seem fixated on mine. While I am usually sympathetic to those members whose first language is other than English; anyone with the number of typos and grammatical errors you showed in your original post, might want to think twice before criticizing anyone else's reading skills.
Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.
Not signing a declaration of war on the USA would mean Hitler had enough ink left in his pen to sign declarations of war on poverty, on intellectual ignorance, on watercolorists and internet trolls.AriX wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 19:53In this section of the forum I found interesting topics like " What if US fight with Germany from 1939?" or "What if US fight alone with Axis?".
So, in this tread it should be discussed how history would turn if Hitler didn't declare war on US after Perl Harbour attack and try to stay neutral as it can be and US concentrates all its military efforts on war with Japan. Youre thoughts ..