Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 20:05

Hopefully, this thread can edify those that would want to learn about how torsion bar suspension works, but also, how it is damaged, and especially, how to recognize it, and not confuse what they 'think they see' with self-contrived 'understandings' (aka delusions). Let's start by jumping in and studying a factory new Panther tank. Note that it is on level terrain. A very good starting point. If looking at the Panther, missing suspension components, on uneven terrain, stuck in the mud, well....let's just look at the picture...rationally.
pan1new.jpg
The black horizontal line is demonstrating how this Panther's suspension wheels should be in relation to the stationary sprocket wheel. Technically, the sprocket wheel, and the rear idler wheel, are not 'suspension' in that they are keeping the mass of the AFV from dropping downward. These two other elements are actually involved with driving the track (sprocket), and the tension of the track (idler). Driving the vehicle, and smashing either one of these elements is to be avoided, BTW. In any case, once a Panther has its tracks on, the idler is adjusted so as to maintain the correct tension. Both tracks need to be loaded equally to do this. That is, the tank is driven or reversed in a strait line first, as turning loads the tracks differently. In any case, the vehicle should be on flat ground, and the idler, which rotates, is adjusted so that the track has clearance on the first , second and last roadwheel. This will make the idler position, as easily guessed, variable in height and position. One would not want to demonstrate some concept of linearity by this idler, of course, but that is probably apparent to most.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 20:30

Likewise, this Panther shows a similar tensioning of the track, I suspect a post-Kursk Panther

Image

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Feb 2019 20:49

It is a Panther captured at Kursk and shows it in the UK. It arrived spring 1944 and they did a quick 'test' of it before The Invasion. This report was the birth of the 'deflect a shot off the mantlet into the crew compartment' fable.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 21:27

Here is a quick test....what's missing? That's Right! The front road wheel. Why is tilting like that? That's right. Physics. There are 16 points of weight distribution through the swing arms on the torsion bar suspension. A little over 2.8 tons of weight is pushing down, on average, on each of the swing arms, and the torsion bar is counteracting that. It's hard to tell, maybe the swing arm is gone, but if it were there, it would be swung all the way downward. Consequently, the track tension is loose.

Image

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 21:38

Here's a tricky one guys...at first look, it is covered in 'white bloomage'...it has collapsium of tracks, it has melted off its rubber and the torsion bars have gone through the process of sublimation and entered the ether!!!!

Image

Actually this Panther has lost the rubber from the road wheels. One of the initial issues was that at speed, the rubber came off. The sun is off to the right and seems quite bright from the shadow the gun tube is making. The track seems to be a bit loose, and losing the rubber, and roadwheel diameter could account for that. The prominent amount of lower hull armor shows that there is no 'collapse' of the suspension. As we will soon see, this is actually a very small amount of dropping of the hull, and not to be confused with other roadwheel damage. Generally, when the road wheel's rubber burns off, it will leave a tell-tale pile of white powder.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Feb 2019 22:39

Feast on this all-around view. Panther '434' at Kursk including a better quality scan of the front L/H than the blurry image previously posted:

mar2018366 b.jpg
mar20183c 64.jpg
mar2018363 m.jpg
mar2018364 sml.jpg
Panther 434 Kursk ,,.jpg



Yoozername wrote:
27 Feb 2019 21:38
Generally, when the road wheel's rubber burns off, it will leave a tell-tale pile of white powder.
I believe the technical term is 'ash'
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 22:49

Thanks, neither side shows burning of the rubber. Nor any suspension collapse. The painted turret numbers, and crosses, are immune to the white bloomage conflagration that some photo-interlopers might see.

Whether one believes it should be so or not, that Panther tank would be salvageable per SOP of the Germans. But I believe the Soviets have it.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 27 Feb 2019 23:08

Kenny, if you insist on monitoring Panther Primer school, you must go back and correct your homework....sharpen your colored pencils, and straighten your ruler too...we will get to your muddy mistakes soon.
kennybent.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Michael Kenny » 27 Feb 2019 23:19

Yoozername wrote:
27 Feb 2019 22:49
Thanks, neither side shows burning of the rubber. Nor any suspension collapse. The painted turret numbers, and crosses, are immune to the white bloomage conflagration that some photo-interlopers might see.

Check out '634'. Plenty of 'white' to be seen there.


mar2018367 bb.jpg
mar2018367.jpg
The above and Panther '142' below have collapsed suspensions, or as some would say, an incorrectly adjusted idler.
mar2018368 ,.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 28 Feb 2019 00:33

You are disrupting the syllabus....but I would like you to at least express what you think you are seeing, on a high school level (or better), if you would...what do you think this 'white' is? Is a burning indication? A by-product of combustion? Is this Panther equipped with the early model asbestos 'rubber'?

Image

MarkN
Member
Posts: 2637
Joined: 12 Jan 2015 13:34
Location: On the continent

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by MarkN » 28 Feb 2019 14:06

Yoozername wrote:
27 Feb 2019 23:08
if you insist on monitoring Panther Primer school, you must go back and correct your homework....sharpen your colored pencils, and straighten your ruler too...we will get to your muddy mistakes soon.
Yoozername wrote:
28 Feb 2019 00:33
You are disrupting the syllabus....but I would like you to at least express what you think you are seeing, on a high school level (or better), if you would...what do you think this 'white' is? Is a burning indication? A by-product of combustion? Is this Panther equipped with the early model asbestos 'rubber'?
I can see you've set yourself up as the know-it-all on this subject, but when are you going to get around to the torsion bar, what it is and how it works?

Remember, the thread's title is: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer and your first words were: this thread can edify those that would want to learn about how torsion bar suspension works.

Or is this just a thread to post pictures of panther pantsers, a place to post self-indulgent remarks about yourself and your assumed knowledge and to bait and wind up another poster?

Never mind... :welcome:

Juha
Member
Posts: 280
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 10:38
Location: Finland

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Juha » 28 Feb 2019 15:05

I don't mind the motives, Interesting pictures which show that Russians had placed their A/T guns well, it seems that there were no hits onto extremely well protected glacises but several hits on sides, and a hit on gun barrel. After Kursk published Soviet A/T manual mentioned that if one had not so powerful but accurate gun or A/T rifle, one possible target was gun barrel, good hit on it would transform a powerful tank to a very heavy moveable mg-nest.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 28 Feb 2019 17:13

MarkN wrote:
28 Feb 2019 14:06
Yoozername wrote:
27 Feb 2019 23:08
if you insist on monitoring Panther Primer school, you must go back and correct your homework....sharpen your colored pencils, and straighten your ruler too...we will get to your muddy mistakes soon.
Yoozername wrote:
28 Feb 2019 00:33
You are disrupting the syllabus....but I would like you to at least express what you think you are seeing, on a high school level (or better), if you would...what do you think this 'white' is? Is a burning indication? A by-product of combustion? Is this Panther equipped with the early model asbestos 'rubber'?
I can see you've set yourself up as the know-it-all on this subject, but when are you going to get around to the torsion bar, what it is and how it works?

Remember, the thread's title is: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer and your first words were: this thread can edify those that would want to learn about how torsion bar suspension works.

Or is this just a thread to post pictures of panther pantsers, a place to post self-indulgent remarks about yourself and your assumed knowledge and to bait and wind up another poster?

Never mind... :welcome:
Yes, it is a fun-packed approach to the usual pissy-pants antics we see here at AHF. Obviously, it is meant as both a rebuke to the declarations by a poster who is spreading , IMO, false information....And, yes, I want to get into the actual mechanics and history of the use of torsion bars in WWII and beyond. They are still used in many AFV today, and for good reason. I have been involved with long running threads in the past, including a multi-year effort against mobius.

I do see you have ego issues, and on a serious note, quit PMing me. You also need to have patients, or take the meds, all will be revealed in due time.

Yoozername
Member
Posts: 2619
Joined: 25 Apr 2006 15:58
Location: Colorado

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Yoozername » 28 Feb 2019 17:27

In any case, let's get back to fundamentals. It is my impression that words are being used incorrectly, and conditions described but the actual causes are being not declared or mixed up or being intentionally obtuse. We can bypass that by keeping parameters in check, identifying conditions and moving on from there.

The condition here is a actual Panther burnout, almost certainly an ammunition fire, that has blown out the floor of the sponson, consumed the rubber on the road-wheels, and the effect on the suspension is to weaken the ability of the torsion bar to resist rotation. The overall effect is to allow the hull to drop drop as shown by the red bar. The Panther hull has stopped dropping because the swing arms rotational motion is stopped by the 'bump-stops'. Note that all road wheels are present. THE PANTHER SHOWS THIS CONDITION ON LEVEL GROUND.
panburn1.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8269
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Torsion Bar Suspension Analysis: A Panther Primer

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Feb 2019 17:36

MarkN wrote:
28 Feb 2019 14:06


Or is this just a thread to post pictures of panther pantsers, a place to post self-indulgent remarks about yourself and your assumed knowledge and to bait and wind up another poster?

He will never make me bite. He feels he has some personal issues with me but I can live with it. He even followed me over to Missing Lynx and tried using the same tactics there. He lasted less than a week before he was banned and all his posts erased.

The only sign he was ever there is this 'quote' caught in a reply to one of his posts

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missing ... l#p1534520

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”