Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

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John T
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Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 28 Nov 2018 22:09

Hi

Can anyone help me with Import through Tornio on Finnish railway during the winter war ?
I tries to get the a picture on Swedish deliveries and transits during the winter war and then Haparanda and Tornio railway stations became one of the major bottlenecks of Finnish imports during the war.

Any Sources or other input?
if possible not in Finnish, (But Google translate has learned a lot during the last ten years, now it might even be readable)

One of my primary sources on the rail situation are from the Scandinavian conference of "Interscandinavian transit in case of crisis or blockade" that where held during during 1938-1939, in Carl von Horns personal archive, He was one of the Swedish participants and a captain at Swedish GHQ Transport Department (Kommunikationsavdelningen), specalized on rail transport.

The Finnish members where H. Andersson FÅA, Max Frenzell Engineer and Director at VR, and ÖvLt O. Blom
The general idea was that Finland's import had to be by sea, the rail could only cope with 10% of the demand.

A Finnish report estimated that Tornio Railway station could transload 120 wagons a day with three shifts with 80 men each at the normal platform and a similar number on the east side of the magazines with help of lorries.
But they then go on to say that given the threat of air raids, it would be prudent to estimate the total capacity to 40 wagons per day in each direction.
No demands where made on Sweden to upgrade the Haparanda side, rather that Finland could supply 40 tankwagons on normal gauge in Norway and Sweden to assist imports to Finland. (five where actualy used Narvik -Haparanda during the winter war)

The Norwegians on the other hand was rather pessimistic what they could contribute with more than the harbors and rail lines.
Rolling stock, personnel and even coal had to be provided by the Swedes and only wagons with compressed air braking should be used in Norway.
While the Norwegian wagons on Swedish tracks would be old manual brake system.
There are references to an earlier agreement between Sweden and Norway and it looks like they tried to set up positions in a negotiation rather than trying to support each other in case of emergency.
Norwegians also demanded that the turntable i Storlien(border between Trondheim and Östersund) had to be replaced as it was too small for the longest Norwegian steam engines with snowplow attached.
Three weeks before the winter war broke out the new turntable where in operation, so these talks resulted in some actual improvements however small.

Where there any Finnish preparations in Tornio during 1938-39 ?

Today the railway area seems to been a development area so I found some documents online with detailed maps of the station area.
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... alue_p.pdf
and
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... 310316.pdf

In the first document, the map on page 15 does it shows the area before 1928?

Is there anything said about what was Swedish tracks and what was Finnish tracks,
on the bridge cross Torneälv both are placed on the same embarkment, but I assume they where switched into two different embarkments on the Finnish side as done on the Swedish side.



There are three works by Masi Montonen online, the one dealing a bit with Winter war in hte link below.
but I can't find any references to import and exports, most is prewar planning and then the situation in South east:
RAUTATIEKULJETUSTEN TOIMEENPANOSUUNNITELMAT ENNEN TALVISOTAA
https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/1 ... sequence=2






In Haparanda, the broad gauge tracks are north of the station buiding:
Image
(I have to right click and select open picture in new tab to get the high resolution version)

In Swedish I found the following text obvioulsy written for some sort of history about Swedish rail during ww2.
http://www.jvmv2.se/forum/index.php?id=211171

Appreciate any help
/John

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 01 Dec 2018 00:52

John T wrote:
28 Nov 2018 22:09
Today the railway area seems to been a development area so I found some documents online with detailed maps of the station area.
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... alue_p.pdf
and
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... 310316.pdf

In the first document, the map on page 15 does it shows the area before 1928?
It says that the undated map shows the area probably between 1919-28.
John T wrote:
28 Nov 2018 22:09
Is there anything said about what was Swedish tracks and what was Finnish tracks,
on the bridge cross Torneälv both are placed on the same embarkment, but I assume they where switched into two different embarkments on the Finnish side as done on the Swedish side.
According to the map after page 3 of the document below, Swedish tracks run on the west side (Swedish tracks are with solid line and Finnish tracks with dashed line).
https://www.kyppi.fi/palveluikkuna/rapo ... sio_id=851
Probably also at the station building Swedish tracks were on the west side of the building and Finnish on the east side.
https://kartta.museoverkko.fi/?action=s ... pLayers=20

Here in an article of the German military presence in Tornio and Alatornio, there is an English summary, with a map made for the control commission in 1945. Buildings used by the Germans are marked with green.
https://kalevimikkonen27.blogspot.com/2 ... ikana.html

John T
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 06 Dec 2018 19:57

Sorry for my late response,
but it gives me an opportunity to congratulate on the 101 birthday!

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
01 Dec 2018 00:52
John T wrote:
28 Nov 2018 22:09
Today the railway area seems to been a development area so I found some documents online with detailed maps of the station area.
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... alue_p.pdf
and
http://212.50.147.149/kaavatornio/tiedo ... 310316.pdf

In the first document, the map on page 15 does it shows the area before 1928?
It says that the undated map shows the area probably between 1919-28.
Thanks, and in 1928 the new station building where inaugurated.(I now understands)
Seppo Koivisto wrote:
01 Dec 2018 00:52
John T wrote:
28 Nov 2018 22:09
Is there anything said about what was Swedish tracks and what was Finnish tracks,
on the bridge cross Torneälv both are placed on the same embarkment, but I assume they where switched into two different embarkments on the Finnish side as done on the Swedish side.
According to the map after page 3 of the document below, Swedish tracks run on the west side (Swedish tracks are with solid line and Finnish tracks with dashed line).
https://www.kyppi.fi/palveluikkuna/rapo ... sio_id=851
Probably also at the station building Swedish tracks were on the west side of the building and Finnish on the east side.
https://kartta.museoverkko.fi/?action=s ... pLayers=20
Perfect!
It seems little, if anything at all was done to improve the rail between 1919 and beginning of the winter war.
Seppo Koivisto wrote:
01 Dec 2018 00:52

Here in an article of the German military presence in Tornio and Alatornio, there is an English summary, with a map made for the control commission in 1945. Buildings used by the Germans are marked with green.
https://kalevimikkonen27.blogspot.com/2 ... ikana.html
In 1945 the Swedish gauge seems to been extended north of the station building too.


Kalevi Mikkonenalso got a full ebook on the net:
https://www.rovaniemi.fi/fi/Palvelut/Ku ... nkaa-kirja


Thanks for the help and Happy Independence day !

/John

John T
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 25 Feb 2019 20:19

This might be of Interest for you:

From the Swedish Railways Classified archive, Freight tariff department.
IMG_4069.jpg
The letter says 16 boxes where sent in two railcars on the 14:th and 8 boxes in one railcar the 15:th,
to arrive in Torneo Friday and Saturday.

6 boxes due to Trelleborg from Hamburg and 4 Rangefinders (entfernungsmesser) from Berlin has not yet arrived in Sweden.
Serlachius ahs been notified in Berlin.

Colonel Pavola and Serlachius questioned if the arms transited really had to be paid by Tariff 7A, rather to unify all goods to Tariff 5A seemed more appropriate.
so the two full rail sets of 30 and 21 railcars should be recalculated as per attached docuents.

10 rail cars are ready at the Hungarian border.
IMG_4070.jpg
IMG_4071.jpg
Column headers:
Krut = gupowder
Gevär= rifles
Ammun = Ammo( !!)
Masking. = I assume it means Machineguns (20mm?)
weight
Freight paid
Freight if better tariff used.
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John T
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 25 Feb 2019 20:31

It all ended up with Finland recieved most favorable freight tariffs both for export and imports during the war.
and as part of the negotiations the following statistics where compiled:

From Finland
IMG_4072.jpg
just a handfull of wagons per day.

and some more explanation on the export,
in short Hay(Hö) to Northen Sweden,
Papper and Pulp exported over Narvik.
IMG_4073.jpg
And Finnish Imports:
IMG_4074.jpg
Just a few wagons per month!
But from my previous post we know at least 51 rail wagons where sent with arms.

But all in all, the minuscule volumes before the war explains a lot of why the infrastructure where so bad.


Cheers
/John
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Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 25 Feb 2019 21:46

John T wrote:
25 Feb 2019 20:19
Masking. = I assume it means Machineguns (20mm?)
Is that just that in Finland Swedish machine gun is called maskingevär and in Sweden kulspruta?

John T
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 25 Feb 2019 23:00

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
25 Feb 2019 21:46
John T wrote:
25 Feb 2019 20:19
Masking. = I assume it means Machineguns (20mm?)
Is that just that in Finland Swedish machine gun is called maskingevär and in Sweden kulspruta?
Yes, and most Swedes with a military interest knows that word in Finland Swedish,
as Väinö Linnas "Tuntematon sotilas" where not translated to "Swedish Swedish" but printed in Sweden with the "Finland Swedish" translation.
:milwink:

But as far as I know German 20mm guns were shipped during November 1939,
and I assumed these are branded machineguns
- Or did Finland recieve rifles and "real" machine guns at that period?

An alternate explanation is maskingods "machine goods" - and then it can mean anything
(gunpowder plants or case loading machinery)

Cheers
/John

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JTV
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by JTV » 26 Feb 2019 07:00

John T wrote:
25 Feb 2019 23:00

But as far as I know German 20mm guns were shipped during November 1939,
and I assumed these are branded machineguns
- Or did Finland recieve rifles and "real" machine guns at that period?

An alternate explanation is maskingods "machine goods" - and then it can mean anything
(gunpowder plants or case loading machinery)
I suspect they might be machined goods in this case - the document seems to mention maskingods with tariff 7A. As you mention if so, that could be pretty much anything. What I remember I should have some photos about lists of materials, machinery etc bought from Hungary during Winter War somewhere, so I can try finding them when I have time.

Jarkko

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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by JTV » 03 Mar 2019 08:15

Finnish military acquired quite a bit of machinery for ammunition production during Winter War and what I remember part of may have been bought from Hungary, but I was not able to find the documents about that.

Here is list of the ordnance materials that Finland acquired from Hungary during Winter War:
- 300,000 hand grenades (egg m/36; Vitéz Giraés Becsey, 100,000 delivered in March)
- 500,000 7.62 mm x 54R tracer rounds (150,000 delivered in March; the rest apparently delivered after Winter War).
- 30,000 81 mm mortar shells (all delivered in March).
- 20,000 20 mm x 105B APHE-T rounds (10,000 delivered in February).
- 80,000 76 mm field gun shells (60,00 delivered in March – July 1940, order cancelled for the remaining 20,000 shells).
- 59,000 122 mm howitzer shells (partially manufactured 16,000 possibly delivered in April – July 1940, rest of the order cancelled).
- 56,000 rounds with armor piercing shells for 40 mm anti-aircraft gun (no deliveries, order cancelled).
- 270 tons of TNT (no deliveries, order cancelled).
- 16 mortars (81 mm).
- 2,240 mortar shells for 81-mm mortars (2,107 heavy shells + 133 standard shells).
- 30 Polish 8 mm antitank-rifles m/35 .
- 3,300 rounds for Polish antitank-rifles m/35.
- 300 Mosin-Nagant rifles m/91.
- 42 anti-aircraft guns 40 mm Bofors (manufacturer MAVAG; 30 delivered by summer of 1940).
- 26,000 belt pouches for rifle ammunition.
- 75,000 steel helmets (Hungarian m/38 steel helmet; delivered February – April 1940).

Jarkko

Prts
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by Prts » 09 Mar 2019 05:57

JTV wrote:
03 Mar 2019 08:15
- 42 anti-aircraft guns 40 mm Bofors (manufacturer MAVAG; 30 delivered by summer of 1940)
Nice info!

How should this be interpreted:
a: 12 guns were delivered during Winter War and 30 by summer 1940
b: only 30 guns were delivered?

Thanks,
jukka

(numbers corrected in option "a" - typo)
Last edited by Prts on 09 Mar 2019 17:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Mar 2019 12:30

Image
https://kirjapino.fi/product/itsenaisen ... tatykit-2/

According to above (if I understood correctly) the first 8 guns from Hungary came during spring(?) -39 (were ready when the war broke out) and 22 during the extra rehersals.
December -39 Germany confiscated the batch of 12 guns on their way via Germany to Finland. After Winter War, during the spring -40, Germany released those 12 guns to Finland.

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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Mar 2019 20:51

John T wrote:
25 Feb 2019 23:00
But as far as I know German 20mm guns were shipped during November 1939,
and I assumed these are branded machineguns
Yep.
Heavy AA-machineguns.

Regards, Juha

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JTV
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by JTV » 17 Mar 2019 07:57

Prts wrote:
09 Mar 2019 05:57
JTV wrote:
03 Mar 2019 08:15
- 42 anti-aircraft guns 40 mm Bofors (manufacturer MAVAG; 30 delivered by summer of 1940)
Nice info!

How should this be interpreted:
a: 12 guns were delivered during Winter War and 30 by summer 1940
b: only 30 guns were delivered?
I have to check this in detail.

Jarkko

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JTV
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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by JTV » 17 Mar 2019 08:07

Juha Tompuri wrote:
09 Mar 2019 12:30
Image
https://kirjapino.fi/product/itsenaisen ... tatykit-2/

According to above (if I understood correctly) the first 8 guns from Hungary came during spring(?) -39 (were ready when the war broke out) and 22 during the extra rehersals.
December -39 Germany confiscated the batch of 12 guns on their way via Germany to Finland. After Winter War, during the spring -40, Germany released those 12 guns to Finland.
I am having some doubts if the particular book actually got it right. Unfortunately most archive documents apparently lumped in Hungarian deliveries with the Swedish ones, which complicates things.

Jarkko

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Re: Imports during the Winter war. - Railways

Post by John T » 07 Apr 2019 21:42

JTV wrote:
26 Feb 2019 07:00
John T wrote:
25 Feb 2019 23:00

But as far as I know German 20mm guns were shipped during November 1939,
and I assumed these are branded machineguns
- Or did Finland recieve rifles and "real" machine guns at that period?

An alternate explanation is maskingods "machine goods" - and then it can mean anything
(gunpowder plants or case loading machinery)
I suspect they might be machined goods in this case - the document seems to mention maskingods with tariff 7A. As you mention if so, that could be pretty much anything. What I remember I should have some photos about lists of materials, machinery etc bought from Hungary during Winter War somewhere, so I can try finding them when I have time.

Jarkko
The weight fit pretty well with an transfer permit of

300 tons of gunpowder and equipment for gunpowder factory,
from Hungary and Yugoslavia.

300 tons of Yugoslavian rifles,
31 576 rifles, 15 900 bayonets and 12 tons of rifle parts, but that should total at 218 tons (gross or net??)


and 30 tons of German 20mm ammo.


Cheers
/John

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