Rescue of Leningrad

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jesk
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Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 11 Mar 2019 15:13

At the beginning of October 1941, in connection with the release of Germans to Lake Ladoga, the Leningrad Front was in a stalemate. The advance of the 18th Army by 30–40 km both in the western and eastern directions led to the surrender of Leningrad. In the second case, in connection with the elimination of the "road of life". The seizure of a ledge on a lake east of the Volkhov River completely blocked the city. No car on the ice would come out. All space was swept by German artillery.

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Salvation came from Hitler. He ordered the 39th Corps to redeploy 100 km to the south and from there strike at Tikhvin. The diagram is clearly visible, Tikhvin became the center of removal from victory. Like a magnet attracted German troops. The Russians were saved.

On another forum, the topic was discussed. Hitler thought up the plan of rescue of Leningrad.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/ ... ls.399000/
It would seem that the Tikhvin Operation of 1941 was a major blunder beyond it's unsustainability that put Army Group North in a really bad situation, it also missed the chance to cut the Road of Life that helped Leningrad survive the winter of 1941-42.
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It would seem that given the depth of penetration of 18th army against Tikhvin, had it instead kept to the West Bank of the Volkhov river it would have been a far more sustainable situation that would have destroyed the Soviet 54th army as well as cut off the Road of Life supply route to Leningrad. Plus it would give the 18th army a defensible terrain feature to anchor their position on, not travel as far, and a better front density of troops to hold the line. Then Leningrad would fall over the winter, probably no later than January 1942 due to lack of supplies. That would then free up the rest of 18th army screening the city and the Oranienbaum bridgehead for other Operations and remove about 2.5 million Soviets from Stalin's control, plus of course the KV factory in Leningrad. Come Summer after repairs Leningrad would be a supply base for AG-North and air base, while Finnish troops freed up could then attack Murmansk and the rail road in Spring/Summer.

The German 11th army would likely then never head north at all and at most go to AG-Center to conduct Operation Wirbelwind near the Rzhev salient.

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Halder's diary entry October 1, 1941
http://militera.lib.ru/db/0/pdf/halder_eng7.pdf

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BDV
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by BDV » 11 Mar 2019 22:07

No Tikhvin, no aluminum for 100,000 AFV engines or for MIG/La/Pe/IL planes. It ALL has to come from LendLease. Not pretty.

Second if Leningrad is totally outta food, skilled workers will be evacuated by foot and by plane.

We are getting into LJADW’s argument that Germany cannot afford a strategic offensive in the East, thus being reduced to a series of tactical improvisations. Between officers denying the truth in front of their nose and Schicklgruber ordering a force incapable of strategic breakthrough to die trying, makes for a comedic farce if it weren’t for 20 million dead.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 06:06

These are some generalizations. In details, Hitler removed from the coast of Lake Ladoga 39 tank corps 100 km south in the area Chudovo. By mid-November, the front of the offensive increased from 70 to 350 km. After the capture of Tikhvin, only 18 motorized division in full strength remained on the point of impact. The remaining 3 divisions: 8,12,20 part of forces covered the flanks.
The exit on Volkhov guaranteed a victory, but Hitler arranged sabotage to hold down the 18th army. Then sent 11 army. Without Hitler there was no such need. Ice road would never open. This intentional sabotage does not allow a German victory.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 07:17

Movement of the 39th motorized corps in october-november 1941. The situation looked as if the Soviet troops inflicted a powerful counterstrike, throwing the corps 100 km from Leningrad and holding the defense along the line Chudovo-Tikhvin. This is sabotage in the military field.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage

Sabotage is a deliberate action aimed at weakening a polity, effort, or organization through subversion, obstruction, disruption, or destruction. One who engages in sabotage is a saboteur. Saboteurs typically try to conceal their identities because of the consequences of their actions.

Any unexplained adverse condition might be sabotage. Sabotage is sometimes called tampering, meddling, tinkering, malicious pranks, malicious hacking, a practical joke, or the like to avoid needing to invoke legal and organizational requirements for addressing sabotage.

Boby
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 12 Mar 2019 11:44

Intentional sabotage? Ha, ha, ha

Jesk again in his fantasy world.

Btw, the map is the wrong one. Situation on 3 October
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... t41_lg.jpg

Post here Leeb, Küchler and OKH opinion at the time, instead of talking nonsense.

jesk
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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 13:49

Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 11:44
Intentional sabotage? Ha, ha, ha

Jesk again in his fantasy world.

Btw, the map is the wrong one. Situation on 3 October
http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/L ... t41_lg.jpg

Post here Leeb, Küchler and OKH opinion at the time, instead of talking nonsense.
Hitler made hundreds of mistakes and made them on purpose. The Fuhrer is under my suspicion. He hated racists and antisemites, dreamed of a democratic Europe after the war.
The map for October confirms the movement of the 39 corps to strike to the rear. Leeb wrote in his diary that nothing depended on him. Hitler came up with an offensive plan, extending the route 10 times. To win, without the intervention of Hitler, it took a much smaller distance.

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Leeb's diary

http://militera.lib.ru/db/leeb_vr/03.html

Четверг, 2 октября 1941 г.

Личные пометки Лееба в записной книжке:

Фюрер инициирует проведение операции в направлении Тихвин — Волховстрой в тыл противнику силами 39-го армейского корпуса. К сожалению, сил для этого недостаточно.

Пятница, 3 октября 1941 г.

В последние дни инициатива фюрера получила свое развитие.
В группу армий «Север» поступил запрос: проверить, нет ли возможности форсировать силами 39-го армейского корпуса реку Волхов в районе Чудово, затем продвинуться в направлении Тихвина, зайдя в тыл противнику, расположенному между Волховом и Ладожским озером. Там этого противника уничтожить. К сожалению, пока для этого не хватает сил. По расчетам потребовалось бы минимум две — три дивизии. С учетом находящихся на подходе 217-й и 212-й пехотных дивизий, к операции можно было бы приступить примерно 21 октября. Но удастся ли удержать позиции 39-го корпуса после вывода оттуда 20-й моторизованной, 12-й и 8-й танковых дивизий? Этот вопрос остается открытым и очень спорным. Кроме того, на всем Ленинградском и Кронштадтском фронтах вновь не оказалось резервов. Поэтому наступательные операции там были бы также невозможны. Сомнительно также, чтобы погода позволила начать здесь, на севере, крупную операцию 21 октября.

Thursday, October 2, 1941

Leeb's personal notes in the notebook:

The Fuhrer initiates an operation in the direction of Tikhvin - Volkhovstroy to the rear of the enemy by the forces of the 39th Army Corps. Unfortunately, the strength for this is not enough.

Friday, October 3, 1941

In recent days, the initiative of the Fuhrer received its development.
Army Group North asked: to check whether it is possible to force the 39th Army Corps to force the Volkhov River in the Chudovo area, then move in the direction of Tikhvin, entering the enemy’s rear, located between Volkhov and Lake Ladoga. There, the enemy to destroy. Unfortunately, for now there is not enough power. According to calculations, it would take at least two to three divisions. Taking into account the 217th and 212nd infantry divisions on the way, the operation could be started around October 21. But will it be possible to hold the position of the 39th Corps after the withdrawal of the 20th motorized, 12th and 8th tank divisions from there? This question remains open and very controversial. In addition, all over the Leningrad and Kronstadt fronts again there were no reserves. Therefore, offensive operations there would also be impossible. It is also doubtful that the weather would allow a major operation to begin here, in the north, on October 21.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 12 Mar 2019 14:16

Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH made any plan for clearing the Volkhov area?

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 14:21

Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:16
Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH made any plan for clearing the Volkhov area?
What do you want to tell about the plans OKH? Write where is nonsense, and where is truth.

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 12 Mar 2019 14:33

jesk wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:21
Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:16
Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH made any plan for clearing the Volkhov area?
What do you want to tell about the plans OKH? Write where is nonsense, and where is truth.
????

Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH worked out any plan for the capture of that area northwest of Volkhov? It was replaced by the Tikhvin offensive on Hitler's orders?

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 14:47

Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:33
jesk wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:21
Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:16
Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH made any plan for clearing the Volkhov area?
What do you want to tell about the plans OKH? Write where is nonsense, and where is truth.
????

Did Leeb/Küchler/OKH worked out any plan for the capture of that area northwest of Volkhov? It was replaced by the Tikhvin offensive on Hitler's orders?
Maps October 3 and November 15. Hitler removed 39 motorized corps from Leningrad. The Germans could force Neva or block "road of life". Hitler chose Tikhvin? What for?

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 12 Mar 2019 14:56

No response?

There was any Leeb's/Busch?/OKH plan for the capture of this west bank? Yes or no?

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by jesk » 12 Mar 2019 15:14

Boby wrote:
12 Mar 2019 14:56
No response?

There was any Leeb's/Busch?/OKH plan for the capture of this west bank? Yes or no?
Plan to seize the east bank. And go to the Volkhov River. Because Tikhvin had to be abandoned.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/leeb_vr/02.html

Sunday September 28, 1941

Note by George Mayer:

September 28, at 10.30 pm, the following was recorded in the combat log of Army Group North: “An order was issued for Group 1 for further operations. An army group by repelling enemy attacks creates prerequisites for a new offensive after reinforcements arrive. The purpose of the attacks is to perform previously assigned tasks:
a) dense surroundings of Leningrad;
b) the destruction of the 8th Red Army west of Peterhof;
c) blocking the Kronstadt bay in cooperation with the Navy;
d) forcing the Neva, entourage of Leningrad from the east and connecting with the Finns west of Lake Ladoga;
e) the destruction of the enemy south of Lake Ladoga, the exit to Volkhov and the further advance towards Lodeynoy Pole in order to connect with the Finns east of Lake Ladoga.
Attacks and their sequence will be determined depending on the situation. "

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Boby » 12 Mar 2019 15:31

Thanks jesk

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by BDV » 12 Mar 2019 15:43

jesk wrote: Attacks and their sequence will be determined depending on the situation. "
Precisely.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Rescue of Leningrad

Post by Konig_pilsner » 12 Mar 2019 16:25

I like the advance to Tikhvin.

Leeb's direct attack towards Volkhov suffered heavy casualties and was called off. By flanking the 54th army at Tikhvin you cut off the last rail line from Moscow to Leningrad, and put the 54th army in bad spot. Much better then smashing your head against a wall.

Problems were numerous. Operationally they were too ambitious with a PD and MD heading south to link up with AGC, which was called off after 2 weeks. By the time they were redirected to Tikhvin it was too late for the encirclement. (The 8th MD had forced a gap between the 4th and 54th that could have been exploited.) The roads sucked and the Russians resistance was sufficient to halt the German advance, but it was a close one.

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