OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

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Miles Krogfus
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OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 14 Mar 2019 00:47

On April 24,1945 after the study of thousands of captured Russian documents, a complete chart of Soviet new and repaired tanks sent to all Soviet units was issued by the German OKW. Here is part of this chart, it shows Guards Tank Corps. Also I include translated data from some of the captured documents. Attachment page 2 gives all the new and repaired armor from Russian and Lend Lease sources sent to every Soviet unit including the Guards.
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 14 Mar 2019 00:54

Here in their translated form are a few of the captured documents collected and studied by the OKW.
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 14 Mar 2019 01:06

The Russian TsAMO document includes official Soviet data on 1944 armor: evacuated, sent to repair, and those sent to repair that could not be saved. The revised April 1945 German document shows that the final, corrected German OKW figures give the Heer 30,077 Soviet armor "Verluste" not the now considered incorrect % reduction of 19,420.
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Art
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Art » 14 Mar 2019 16:55

Miles Krogfus wrote:
14 Mar 2019 01:06
The revised April 1945 German document shows that the final, corrected German OKW figures give the Heer 30,077 Soviet armor "Verluste" not the now considered incorrect % reduction of 19,420.
As far as I can see from this document the FHO used a downward corrections of raw claims to estimate actual losses. Then these corrections were crossed out, however, it's not clear what they considered a true number of losses after that.
Naturally, what the FHO thought about the Soviet Army is curious, but not necessary correct.

critical mass
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by critical mass » 16 Mar 2019 11:15

FHO estimates may not always match russian sources. And the russian primary documents should be given the benefit of doubt when it comes to russian losses.

What I don´t understand in the tsamo table is the math:

1944
(A)29,009 AFV salvaged / evacuated.
ok so far. Does this number include AFV declared total loss already on the battlefield? What happened to the non-evacuated losses? Is it known whether or not the figure refers to (I) combat casualties, or (II) combat and mechanical casualties?
(B)1,847 AFV stuck and sunk
again, it´s unknown to me whether or not these are already included in (A) above, or has to be counted under a different, non-evacuated casualty category.
(C) 8,754 AFV shipped away to repair
I presume that this number is related to (A) above, leaving 20,255 of the evacuated AFV unaccounted for so far.
(D) 16,129 AFV dismantled and discarded
I presume that this number relates to (A) above, leaving only 4,126 of the evacuated AFV unaccounted for (the rest is C above).

However, this final figure (4,126) seems to me far to low to represent mechanical or local repairs done in the field or at the collecting points. If taken for face value, this implicates that only 14.2% (if B above is not included in A) or a mere 7.9% (if B above has to be included in A) of the salvaged AFV were deemed repairable with the means available at the front repair groups, and consequently, an astonishing high ratio of 86-92% of the salvaged AFV had to be thrown- or shipped away for discard or factory rebuild. Considering the frequent mechanical failures one has to reckon with, this is an almost certainly unbelievably high figure? Unless mechanical casualties were tabulated under a seperate category (with associated mechanical total losses, too), I find these numbers very difficult to reconcile.

Notice that 29,009 or 30,856 AFV salvaged casualties from the soviet primary source (depending on B above) appear to match the FHO reported, uncorrected unit *claims* for german Heer in 1944 closely: 30,077 AFV compared to 29,009. 3.55% difference. It´s not clear how one could approach total loss comparisons from those but my guess is that the corrected german kill claim, judging by the standart practice to reduce by 50%- will be not too difficult to reconcile with the soviet total AFV losses. I do not give much on LW claims of tank kills anyway...

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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by FORBIN Yves » 16 Mar 2019 11:59

@ critical mass very interesting

But possible to see first JS-2 and 21 is the number for a Heavy/Breaktrough Guards Tank Rgt and several books mentionned first JS-2 fight during Korsun battle with 2nd Tank Army and in others it is IS-85 what is the true and when and with what units fight for the first time JS-2 ?
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... -time.html

Some say also first JS-2 to Targu Frumos with especialy pics with some destroyed by the PzG Gross Deutschland

Art
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Art » 16 Mar 2019 23:51

critical mass wrote:
16 Mar 2019 11:15
(A)29,009 AFV salvaged / evacuated.
ok so far. Does this number include AFV declared total loss already on the battlefield? What happened to the non-evacuated losses? Is it known whether or not the figure refers to (I) combat casualties, or (II) combat and mechanical casualties?
The number of vehicles which were immobilized due to combat damage or technical reasons and were towed to salvage points. You should understand that it was different from "losses" (either irreparable or total losses). Some vehicles which had battle or non-battle damage were still in running condition. Some immobilized vehicles were repaired on the spot without evacuation. For example, it was far easier and less time-consuming to replace broken tracks on the spot than to tow a tank to a salvage point. Finally experienced officers tried to deploy maintenance elements in places were there was a large concentration of damaged vehicles so they didn't need to be towed in order to save time and labor. The total number of tanks which were repaired annually, including minor repairs, was easily a six digit number.
again, it´s unknown to me whether or not these are already included in (A) above, or has to be counted under a different, non-evacuated casualty category.
It depends. Some tanks after being extricated needed to be towed to salvage points, some didn't, it depended on their technical conditions. But in general, those where different categories.
(C) 8,754 AFV shipped away to repair
Shipped for factory-level repair which cannot be performed in field conditions. Actually the number of factory repairs was larger and by my estimate was not smaller than 12 000 or probably even close to 15 000 annually. Probably, some vehicles were still in running conditions and were capable of moving on their own, hence the difference
(D) 16,129 AFV dismantled and discarded
I presume that this number relates to (A) above
Not necessarily. In many cases (probably in most) it was easier to take parts and aggregates from vehicles declared write-offs without time-consuming evacuation.
Notice that 29,009 or 30,856 AFV salvaged casualties from the soviet primary source (depending on B above) appear to match the FHO reported, uncorrected unit *claims* for german Heer in 1944 closely: 30,077 AFV compared to 29,009
I believe, that the same correspondence as between 90 degrees in the right angle and 100 degrees Celsius in the teapot. Those were simply put different things and they didn't need to correlate.

Art
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Art » 16 Mar 2019 23:54

FORBIN Yves wrote:
16 Mar 2019 11:59
But possible to see first JS-2 and 21 is the number for a Heavy/Breaktrough Guards Tank Rgt and several books mentionned first JS-2 fight during Korsun battle with 2nd Tank Army and in others it is IS-85 what is the true and when and with what units fight for the first time JS-2 ?
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... -time.html
First employment of IS-85 was in February 1944 near Korsun. First employment of IS-122, as I remember, in April 44 in Ukraine. See an earlier topic:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=157256

Stiltzkin
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Stiltzkin » 17 Mar 2019 05:07

I wish we could somehow deduce the figures for 1941 and 42. Perhaps a replacement and attrition matrix of some sort, or a multi variate distribution.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by FORBIN Yves » 17 Mar 2019 19:23

Art wrote:
16 Mar 2019 23:54
FORBIN Yves wrote:
16 Mar 2019 11:59
But possible to see first JS-2 and 21 is the number for a Heavy/Breaktrough Guards Tank Rgt and several books mentionned first JS-2 fight during Korsun battle with 2nd Tank Army and in others it is IS-85 what is the true and when and with what units fight for the first time JS-2 ?
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2017/0 ... -time.html
First employment of IS-85 was in February 1944 near Korsun. First employment of IS-122, as I remember, in April 44 in Ukraine. See an earlier topic:
viewtopic.php?f=79&t=157256
Thank you so you confirm no IS-2 to Korsun

Art
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Art » 18 Mar 2019 16:14

Art wrote:
16 Mar 2019 23:54
First employment of IS-122, as I remember, in April 44 in Ukraine.
I correct myself: March 1944 in Ukraine (29 Guards Tank Regiment)

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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 25 Mar 2019 20:52

Here are the rest of the Guards Tank Corps write-ups that came with the April 1945 OKW report.
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 04 Aug 2019 22:31

More 1944 Tank Corps Replacements.
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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 04 Aug 2019 22:34

More 1944 Tank corps.
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Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 04 Aug 2019 22:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OKW study: Soviet Tank Replacements 1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 04 Aug 2019 22:37

More 1944 tank corps replacement armor.
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