von Bock and Voronej

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jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 18 Mar 2019 23:23

Obviously, Halder’s logic was beyond David Frankenberg’s understanding. Stubborn in powerless misunderstanding ...

And I finally understood Halder's logic. 2 months later. The keyword "judgment of army Gp". On the issue of the seizure of Voronezh there was no consensus. Got was against the attack on Voronezh. The Fuhrer did not attach any importance to Voronezh. Von Bock just did not understand the decision-making hierarchy. Hoth in opposition to the attack on Voronezh, the Fuhrer did not attach importance. At such deals, Bock had to understand that it is impossible to attack Voronezh. But Halder hesitated to tell about it, that Bock's wine in disobedience to his subordinate. Von Bock disobeyed Hoth, only taking into account such detail, Halder's logic becomes accessible to understanding.

5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 19 Mar 2019 06:56

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
21 Jan 2019 20:25
5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.
the word to let is passed in the quote

Image

left it to the judgment of army Gp to let that objective go if it could be had only at great cost

What does this phrase designate? Probably translation in the English edition distorted sense. Court of group of armies if Voronezh is the great purpose. But in translation from German if it can lead to big losses. Russian edition translated from German language.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/halder/1942_07.html
Although at the meeting of 3.7 the Führer himself stressed that he did not attach any importance to Voronezh and gave the group of armies the right to refuse to take possession of the city if this could lead to excessive losses, von Bock not only allowed Goth to stubbornly climb Voronezh, but also supported him in this .

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 19 Mar 2019 18:48

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
18 Mar 2019 18:59
...
In that case, he was more the "military genius" than VB was.
And you can prove at least this statement?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 19 Mar 2019 19:23

AbollonPolweder wrote:
19 Mar 2019 18:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
18 Mar 2019 18:59
...
In that case, he was more the "military genius" than VB was.
And you can prove at least this statement?
Logic of the opponent from feature of thinking known as a doublethink. What Halder wrote.

july 5

Image

july 13

Image

July 5, about the senseless movement to Voronezh. 13th about the divisions sent to Voronezh against the order of the Fuhrer.
From this conclusions are drawn:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
17 Mar 2019 11:08
Blitzkrieg relies upon quickness ! Orders were clear : do not insist on taking Voronej, do not use motor. div. in city, just send them south...
In other words : DO NOT LOSE TIME WITH VORONEJ !
In fact, there were no orders. Halder just came up with the words in support of Hitler. He used a doublethink, and DavidFrankenberg. When wrong thoughts are suppressed. German logic often assumes a state of uncertainty. Сan step on Voronezh, at the same time it is impossible.

https://wiki2.org/en/Doublethink
Dou­ble­think is the act of si­mul­ta­ne­ously ac­cept­ing two mu­tu­ally con­tra­dic­tory be­liefs as cor­rect, often in dis­tinct so­cial con­texts. Dou­ble­think is re­lated to, but dif­fers from, hypocrisy and neu­tral­ity. Also re­lated is cog­ni­tive dis­so­nance, in which con­tra­dic­tory be­liefs cause con­flict in one's mind. Dou­ble­think is no­table due to a lack of cog­ni­tive dis­so­nance—thus the per­son is com­pletely un­aware of any con­flict or con­tra­dic­tion.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 19 Mar 2019 21:01

AbollonPolweder wrote:
19 Mar 2019 18:48
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
18 Mar 2019 18:59
...
In that case, he was more the "military genius" than VB was.
And you can prove at least this statement?
1-Hitler would not attack Voronej
2-Hitler would not would not use motor. div. to attack Voronej
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Mar 2019 09:51

jesk wrote:
18 Mar 2019 23:23
Von Bock just did not understand the decision-making hierarchy.

He perfectly understood it. He didnt want to obey Hitler's orders, he didnt want to listen to Hoth's reservations.

At such deals, Bock had to understand that it is impossible to attack Voronezh. But Halder hesitated to tell about it, that Bock's wine in disobedience to his subordinate. Von Bock disobeyed Hoth, only taking into account such detail, Halder's logic becomes accessible to understanding.
VB was not Halder. Halder would not have attacked Voronej.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 20 Mar 2019 18:04

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 09:51
VB was not Halder. Halder would not have attacked Voronej.
Halder's logic in relation to von Bock in any case fraud. He agreed with Hitler, or vice versa, that von Bock had violated the order of the Fuhrer.

July 13
He[Hitler] blames this failure on the fact that 24th Armd. Div. and Grossdeutschland, against the Fuehrer's order, were sent into Voronezh, causing a delay that could have been avoided.


But where is this order? There was no such order. With the help of doublethink words of Hitler and Hoth, he equated to the order. Approximately as a party intellegent ...

http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated. The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Mar 2019 20:03

jesk wrote:
20 Mar 2019 18:04
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 09:51
VB was not Halder. Halder would not have attacked Voronej.
Halder's logic in relation to von Bock in any case fraud. He agreed with Hitler, or vice versa, that von Bock had violated the order of the Fuhrer.

July 13
He[Hitler] blames this failure on the fact that 24th Armd. Div. and Grossdeutschland, against the Fuehrer's order, were sent into Voronezh, causing a delay that could have been avoided.


But where is this order? There was no such order. With the help of doublethink words of Hitler and Hoth, he equated to the order. Approximately as a party intellegent ...
So you decide that Halder imagined order whenever it suits its needs ? That's poor logic.
Diaries in general, and Goebbels' one or Halder's one especially, are some of the best sources in history.
http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated. The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.
Please, forget your doublethink theory.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 20 Mar 2019 20:13

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:03
So you decide that Halder imagined order whenever it suits its needs ? That's poor logic.
Diaries in general, and Goebbels' one or Halder's one especially, are some of the best sources in history.
Halder criticized the movement in Voronezh on July 5. July 4, he did not write about Voronezh. The diaries of von Bock and Halder for July 3 disprove the existence of an order about Voronezh. Von Bock was allowed at his discretion to carry out an operation in the direction of Voronezh.
http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated. The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.
Please, forget your doublethink theory.
Halder's logic completely coincides with the symptoms of doublethink. He lied and apparently did not notice it. Orwell was a great connoisseur of human nature!

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Mar 2019 20:26

jesk wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:13
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:03
So you decide that Halder imagined order whenever it suits its needs ? That's poor logic.
Diaries in general, and Goebbels' one or Halder's one especially, are some of the best sources in history.
Halder criticized the movement in Voronezh on July 5. July 4, he did not write about Voronezh.
The 4th Hitler and the HQ celebrated the victory in Crimea.
The diaries of von Bock and Halder for July 3 disprove the existence of an order about Voronezh. Von Bock was allowed at his discretion to carry out an operation in the direction of Voronezh.
VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. The Party intellectual knows in which direction his memories must be altered; he therefore knows that he is playing tricks with reality; but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated. The process has to be conscious, or it would not be carried out with sufficient precision, but it also has to be unconscious, or it would bring with it a feeling of falsity and hence of guilt.
Please, forget your doublethink theory.
Halder's logic completely coincides with the symptoms of doublethink. He lied and apparently did not notice it. Orwell was a great connoisseur of human nature!
Now you decide that Halder lied.

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 20 Mar 2019 20:51

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:26
VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh. Only in the evening on July 6 Hitler remembered about infantry divisions. Except Halder's words on July 13, no more evidence of the order not to move motorized divisions in Voronezh. July 13 Halder remembered the order which nothing was known on July 3-12, since the start of the Voronezh operation. And it is strange.
Now you decide that Halder lied.
On July 5, in one sentence, Halder wrote a contradiction. Von Bock was allowed to attack Voronezh. And he is guilty of senseless advance to Voronezh. 1/2 Halder is lying.

5th july
the Führer himself at the conference made it emphatically clear' that he did not attach any particular importance to Voronej and left it to the judgment of army Gp. to let that objective go if it could be had only at great cost, von Bock tolerated Hoth' senseless rush for Voronezh and even encouraged it.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Mar 2019 21:34

jesk wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:51
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 20:26
VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh.
Even Glantz understood that there was something fishy in VB's diary.

Only in the evening on July 6 Hitler remembered about infantry divisions. Except Halder's words on July 13, no more evidence of the order not to move motorized divisions in Voronezh. July 13 Halder remembered the order which nothing was known on July 3-12, since the start of the Voronezh operation. And it is strange.
Now you decide that Halder lied.
On July 5, in one sentence, Halder wrote a contradiction. Von Bock was allowed to attack Voronezh. And he is guilty of senseless advance to Voronezh. 1/2 Halder is lying.
He's not.
Hitler's idea was not to hit Voronej.
VB's idea was to hit it.
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen, just make sure to destroy military factories and railroads.
That's all.
All Hitler's thing was not to frustrate VB and not to sabotage his own plan.
Hitler failed by trusting too much his generals.

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by AbollonPolweder » 20 Mar 2019 22:24

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
19 Mar 2019 21:01
...
1-Hitler would not attack Voronej
2-Hitler would not would not use motor. div. to attack Voronej
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
By whose order was recorded in the plan Blau a point about the seizure of Voronezh? What do you think, when the word "Voronezh" appeared for the first time in German orders?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 20 Mar 2019 23:02

AbollonPolweder wrote:
20 Mar 2019 22:24
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
19 Mar 2019 21:01
...
1-Hitler would not attack Voronej
2-Hitler would not would not use motor. div. to attack Voronej
3-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.

VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
By whose order was recorded in the plan Blau a point about the seizure of Voronezh? What do you think, when the word "Voronezh" appeared for the first time in German orders?
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?

jesk
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Re: von Bock and Voronej

Post by jesk » 21 Mar 2019 05:48

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
20 Mar 2019 21:34
Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.

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