All sources were quoted.jesk wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 06:48And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
von Bock and Voronej
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
- AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 00:023-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.
VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 17:36Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 00:023-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.
VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
Re: von Bock and Voronej
Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar. The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 12:38All sources were quoted.jesk wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 06:48And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
I doubt that this is so. Another critical comment in unison with the previously voiced thesis. Nothing new. You have to understand, von Bock and Voronezh are the most difficult case for proving the disobedience of generals. Me and von Bock we denied all charges! Halder came up with, Hitler repeated. It is such a consistent chain.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Even Glantz understood that there was something fishy in VB's diary.jesk wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 21:51And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 21:26VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
Re: von Bock and Voronej
It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 17:36Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 00:023-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.
VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
- AbollonPolweder
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
So if I' m not wrong, this is your personally purely logical conclusion. Right?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29...
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 09:47It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 17:36Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 00:023-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.
VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
Following existing sources. Yes.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 15:54So if I' m not wrong, this is your personally purely logical conclusion. Right?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29...
VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
VB didnt like Hitler. Among generals he was not the most pronazi one. Some say he was antinazi.jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 09:40Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 12:38All sources were quoted.jesk wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 06:48And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
It is possible that he did what he thought was good, neglecting Hitler's thoughts. But doing this, he disobeyed, and that's why he was dismissed soon after that episode.
Well, there is a problem if the Fürher do not order anything...The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...
At the best there is a big misunderstanding, like Glantz says.
Or, at the worst, VB perfectly understood but absolutely didnt want to do like Hitler wanted.
VB was free to do whatever he wanted ! He could even order a retreat if he wanted to...jesk wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 21:51And von Bock clearly wrote that he is free in the right to move to Voronezh.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 21:26VB and H's diraies are better than "orders", they reported the debates around the tactics around Voronej.
Whatever he did was not the Hitler's will.
Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
VB was not fond of nazism and the hitlerian régime. His dismissal should not have depressed him a lot...I doubt that this is so. Another critical comment in unison with the previously voiced thesis. Nothing new. You have to understand, von Bock and Voronezh are the most difficult case for proving the disobedience of generals. Me and von Bock we denied all charges! Halder came up with, Hitler repeated. It is such a consistent chain.Even Glantz understood that there was something fishy in VB's diary.
VB probably didnt care about Hitler's strategy in Fall Blau and just did what he thought was good to do.
Re: von Bock and Voronej
From an excursion about von Bock's alleged anti-Nazism, highlighting his disobedience again. There must be clear orders. Do not force the river Don on the way to Voronezh. Only in this case could the motorized divisions quickly turn to the south without fear of the enemy’s counterstrike. Otherwise, it took time to replace some divisions with others. Without a categorical order, the probability of misunderstanding of Hitler's thoughts was too high. 2 months planned seizure of Voronezh. Voronezh is designated by the plan "Blau" obligatory for execution. After 2 months, from Hitler's reasoning, von Bock could not understand the importance of 48 hours for the entire operation. Moreover, he had no chance to allocate such a short period for the significance of “Blau”. The enemy is hopelessly weak, broken in all directions. And what have 48 hours !?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 18:14Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
Re: von Bock and Voronej
We are talking about the causes of Blau’s downfall. The orders of Hitler to direct all motorized divisions to Rostov, could have a much greater influence than the "disobedience" of von Bock with Voronezh.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 17:59We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 09:47It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 17:36Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 00:023-Hitler would not stick to Voronej whereas huge opponent's reinforcements are coming
4-Hitler would send all motor. div. down the south
5-Hitler would not waste 2 days before send the motor. div. south
etc.
VB did the contrary and it led to Fall Blau's failure.
...
I have quoted all sources.
Do you have any ?
ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.
Why should I choose Halder from two diaries? I have as evidence diary von Bock. He denies all charges. And I believe him.
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 19:34From an excursion about von Bock's alleged anti-Nazism, highlighting his disobedience again. There must be clear orders. Do not force the river Don on the way to Voronezh. Only in this case could the motorized divisions quickly turn to the south without fear of the enemy’s counterstrike. Otherwise, it took time to replace some divisions with others. Without a categorical order, the probability of misunderstanding of Hitler's thoughts was too high. 2 months planned seizure of Voronezh. Voronezh is designated by the plan "Blau" obligatory for execution. After 2 months, from Hitler's reasoning, von Bock could not understand the importance of 48 hours for the entire operation. Moreover, he had no chance to allocate such a short period for the significance of “Blau”. The enemy is hopelessly weak, broken in all directions. And what have 48 hours !?DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 18:14Hitler didnt want to spend time and use motor. div. in Voronej, he said it, but VB disobeyed.
The events showed Hitler was right and VB was wrong.
This is history.
Hitler had hard time sith some generals.... VB was one of them.
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Re: von Bock and Voronej
We are dealing with VB's responsability in the failed attack on Voronej which induced the subsequent failure of Fall Blau.jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 19:45We are talking about the causes of Blau’s downfall. The orders of Hitler to direct all motorized divisions to Rostov, could have a much greater influence than the "disobedience" of von Bock with Voronezh.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 17:59We are not talking about Rostov here, but about Voronej.jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 09:47It is rudely taken out of context. Halder urged Hitler not to direct too much forces on Rostov. But he disobeyed, and can be therefore Stalingrad was not taken.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 20:29VB's decision to strike Voronej induced a 2 day delay in Fall Blau. A delay which appeared to be fatal to the encirclment of the soviet troops down the south and led to the failure of Fall Blau.AbollonPolweder wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 17:36
Do you call Halder's diary source? And in what source did you find this conclusion about " ... Fall Blau's failure " ?
ps: Hitler could not disobey Halder, Hitler was the Fürher, not Halder.
Why should I choose Halder from two diaries? I have as evidence diary von Bock. He denies all charges. And I believe him.
You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.
Some wd reproach Hitler his laziness regarding VB's insolence. He wd have listened only himself, he would have succeeded.
Re: von Bock and Voronej
I at least do not agree with the logic of the fall of “Blau” because of the attack on Voronezh. After there was an attack on Rostov, and this particular episode took much more than 48 hours. Halder challenged decision of the Fuhrer. As a percentage in the fall of Blau, Voronezh may be 3%, Rostov 50%. The connection between von Bock and fall of Blau simply does not exist.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 21:02We are dealing with VB's responsability in the failed attack on Voronej which induced the subsequent failure of Fall Blau.
Von Bock in his diary showed that there was no plan of Hitler. He simply allowed not to take Voronezh, if resistance of enemy will be particularly strong.You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.
Between words Voronezh can be not taken if resistance of the opponent is strong and the ban to take Voronezh a big difference. You again ignore the indication of lies and repeat nonsense. In the diary there is no hint of orders. Von Bock lies?Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...
http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/19.html
3/7/42
The Fuhrer arrived at 07.00; despite the fact that he had to leave his headquarters around 04.00, he was very lively and complacent. He confirmed what Halder told me yesterday, and gave me the freedom to abandon the capture of Voronezh in the event that on the approaches to the city our troops meet especially fierce resistance. He wants only one thing: that large aviation factories located in the city, as well as huge depot and other railway structures, will be disabled. He will not mind if the 4th Army, for example, goes to Don south of the city.
We discussed the groundwork of the Supreme Command of the ground forces we received during the night regarding future operations. They even considered the idea of conducting “Blau” operations by infantry forces in order to avoid wasting time. I indicated that such a method would not allow for the encirclement of an adversary who had recently learned something. Under such conditions [457], the enemy will be on time out of the blow, which he is already trying to do, but not always successfully, throughout this year. In this regard, it is extremely important that we attack as quickly as possible with the connection of mobile forces and hit the enemy behind the Aydar River, for which he may begin to retreat as soon as he realizes that they are trying to get around the flanks. The Fuhrer agreed.
Re: von Bock and Voronej
There are a lot of mistakes in your posts. Actually accused von Bock of a lie. Then probably having understood the "unscientific" of such approach, again assumed no contradiction between sources. The interval of 24 hours logically occurs from both diaries..
DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen, just make sure to destroy military factories and railroads.
jesk wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 09:40Von Bock denied the existence of orders. And July 3, 1942 and March 22, 1943. In fact, you call von Bock a pathological liar. The orders of Hitler are absolutely clear, do not insist on the capture of Voronezh. He pretended that the Führer did not order anything...DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 12:38All sources were quoted.jesk wrote: ↑21 Mar 2019, 06:48And of course you have no proofs in confirmation. It is the next imagination on a subject history.. Where is the order? Where is the information no later than July 4? They are not.DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 22:34Somehow Hitler let VB hit Voronej under certain conditions : not slow down Fall Blau, in other words take it in 1 day, the 4th july, then send down the motor. div. and just let inf. in Voronej and let it go if massive counter attack happen,
DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 20:56Hitler didnt want to strike Voronej. VB absolutely wanted to take it. Hitler didnt want to use motor. div. VB wanted to use it in Voronej. Hitler didnt want to spend more than 24h there, VB allowed himself 3 days and even more...
DavidFrankenberg wrote: ↑22 Mar 2019, 21:02You dont have to choose one diary and neglect the other, but to read both and make up your mind. From all testimonies, we can conclude that Hitler's plan was countered by some of his general's plan, VB.