Ukrainian genocide

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#76

Post by Sergey Romanov » 10 Feb 2019, 12:52

Nice opinions, hypotheses and speculations. Nothing proven beyond the reasonable doubt though.

Kajtmaz
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#77

Post by Kajtmaz » 10 Feb 2019, 16:54

A fragment of a map "Länder- und Völkerkarte Europas" (1918) by Dietrich Schäfer (1845-1929)
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Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 918_AD.jpg
...
In 1925, Stalin lectured the Yugoslav comrades on the national question. He told them that the peasant question was "the basis, the quintessence of the national question."
"That explains the fact," he affirmed, "that the peasantry constitutes the main army of the national movement, that there is no powerful national movement without the peasant army."
The social role of the peasantry is inexorably connected with its national needs, and because of the peasants' predominance in agrarian societies, the national question becomes in essence a peasant question.
And to be perfectly clear, Stalin adds that the national question is "not an agrarian but a peasant question, for these are two different things."


Stalin's separation of the peasant's economic and social functions is noteworthy. Stalin criticized the Yugoslavs for underestimating "the inherent strength of the national movement," and warned them that the lack of understanding and underestimation of the national question constituted a grave danger.
...
The foregoing examination of Stalin's twin targets should be sufficient to show that their common characteristic was their national or ethnic identity.
The nexus joining the Ukrainian national group in the Ukrainian SSR (whether taken in its civic or ethnic sense) and the Ukrainian ethnic group in Kuban was their Ukrainianness.
The requirement of the UN Convention on Genocide is thus satisfied: Ukrainian peasants in Ukraine and in the RSFSR were being destroyed in their capacity as Ukrainians; their agrarian role was secondary.
Peasants were the most numerous part of the Ukrainian national/ethnic group, consisting also of intellectuals, state and party functionaries, and workers; and it was this group that Stalin's regime decided, in the language of the UN Convention, "to destroy in part."

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#78

Post by Sergey Romanov » 21 Mar 2019, 20:08

It would be nice to see actual evidence instead of opinions for once.

Let's start with documents or testimonies establishing that there was an intent to destroy "Ukrainian peasants in Ukraine and in the RSFSR ... in their capacity as Ukrainians".

Kajtmaz
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#79

Post by Kajtmaz » 29 Mar 2019, 10:32

29.3.1933:
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#80

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Mar 2019, 14:56

Hi Kajtmaz,

According to the 1926 Soviet Census, Ukraine was then much more homogenous than today:

http://gis.huri.harvard.edu/historical- ... ensus.html

Take particular note of the clear Ukrainian majorities in Lughansk and Donetsk.

Indeed, in 1926 Ukrainians were a majority in several areas within Russia that were adjacent to the Ukraine:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... s_1926.jpg

There is little doubt that, quite apart from the mass deaths by Soviet collectivization-induced famine in the early 1930s, under the USSR Ukrainian majority areas in Russia faced gradual assimilation and that until 1990 the USSR consciously implanted Russian-speaking populations in strategically important areas such as Donetsk and Lughansk within Ukraine itself.

All these activities come within the legal definition of genocide as held today, which goes far beyond its traditional literal meaning of the "killing of a race".

The simple fact is that Russia does not really recognize Ukraine and Ukrainians as separate from Russia and the Russians. It has spent centuries trying to absorb Ukraine and the Ukrainians into Mother Russia and is still trying to do so today.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#81

Post by Sergey Romanov » 29 Mar 2019, 19:09

Sergey Romanov wrote:
21 Mar 2019, 20:08
It would be nice to see actual evidence instead of opinions for once.

Let's start with documents or testimonies establishing that there was an intent to destroy "Ukrainian peasants in Ukraine and in the RSFSR ... in their capacity as Ukrainians".
Still nothing?

Kajtmaz
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#82

Post by Kajtmaz » 30 Mar 2019, 11:00

Hi Sid,
Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Mar 2019, 14:56
The simple fact is that Russia does not really recognize Ukraine and Ukrainians as separate from Russia and the Russians.
The simple fact is that Russia today is an occupier and aggressor.
And was occupier in 1932-33 too.

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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#83

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Mar 2019, 12:36

Kajtmaz wrote:
10 Feb 2019, 16:54
A fragment of a map "Länder- und Völkerkarte Europas" (1918) by Dietrich Schäfer (1845-1929)
Image
Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 918_AD.jpg
Exactly the lands the Germans wanted to take from the Russians, how convenient it is !

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Cantankerous
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#84

Post by Cantankerous » 10 Aug 2020, 01:39

Sergey Romanov wrote:
08 Dec 2018, 13:50
Kajtmaz wrote:
18 Nov 2018, 13:43
Sergey Romanov wrote:
01 May 2010, 15:11
I'm not sure anyone explicitly said that such a murder is less evil, but it certainly is not enshrined in any "-cide" term. Not that it has to do with the left/right political divisions. Also, it is still classified as a crime against humanity.

PS: Of course, wingnut Goldberg doesn't cite any evidence that "vast numbers of leftist intellectuals forgave Stalin, Mao and others for murdering people who stood in the way of Progress — and historians continue to do so today". And of course genocide is not generally defined as killing any "whole class" of people, which is the whole point. It is also not clear why Goldberg is having a discussion with some abstract "Marxists".
Khmer Rouge leaders found guilty of genocide
A UN-backed court ruled that the Khmer Rouge committed genocide, a landmark verdict that is hoped will bring closure to millions of Cambodians.Source: CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/20 ... n-orig.cnn
You do understand that the inclusion among the genocide victims of the tens of thousands ethnic/religious minorities (Vietnamese+Cham), but exclusion of most of the KR victims (who happened to be Khmer) fully supports the point I was making, right?
Pol Pot's atrocious deeds were about taking Cambodia back to the glory of the medieval Khmer Empire (seen by Pol Pot as an eon of pristine Khmer culture), partly by abolishing education and healthcare (which Pol Pot derided as relics of French colonialism in Cambodia), because Pol Pot himself considered modern ideas and city life as evil and impure. His decision to send the Cambodian people to countryside to conduct forced labor hardly fulfills the definition of genocide because Pol Pot's economic policies were as disastrous as those of the 1958-1960 Great Leap Forward.

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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#85

Post by David Thompson » 10 Aug 2020, 18:36

Cantankerous -- Please stay on topic. The discussion is about genocide in the Ukraine.

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Cantankerous
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#86

Post by Cantankerous » 11 Aug 2020, 05:51

David Thompson wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 18:36
Cantankerous -- Please stay on topic. The discussion is about genocide in the Ukraine.
What you call genocide in Ukraine was in no way genocide because people in Kazakhstan and the Northern Caucasus also died from the disastrous effects of Stalin's collectivization policies.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#87

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Aug 2020, 07:32

Hi cantankerous,

Surely that merely either shows that the genocide went beyond Ukraine, or that Stalin was engaged in two other genocides simultaneously?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Cantankerous
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#88

Post by Cantankerous » 11 Aug 2020, 17:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 07:32
Hi cantankerous,

Surely that merely either shows that the genocide went beyond Ukraine, or that Stalin was engaged in two other genocides simultaneously?

Cheers,

Sid.
What I am stressing is the fact that those in the Ukraine who consider the Holodomor to be genocide seem to forget that Stalin's collectivization also hit hard people in the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan, so there was no way the Holodomor was intended to extermination of the Ukrainian people. In a speech given to the AFL-CIO in June 1975, the author of the Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn duly rejected the notion that the Holodomor had a genocidal bent, rightly stressing that the Holodomor, as a man-made calamity, was similar to the 1921 famine in Russia in being caused by the broken command economy of the USSR.

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ... lzhenitsyn

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wm
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Re: Ukrainian genocide

#89

Post by wm » 11 Aug 2020, 17:32

Conveniently Ukraine, the Northern Caucasus and Kazakhstan were the most anti-communist parts of the early Soviet Union.

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