A question of the pass century;
Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
The weapon deployment was impressive, but nevertheless it proved ineffective
I look for concrete causes, or the main cause
Thanks for participating
Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
" The right to believe is the right of those who don't know "
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
The war was lost in the US.
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Why did the Brits lose in 1783?
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Because 58,000 US soldiers dead and $170 billion spent in a conflict where no american vital interests were at stakes was too much.
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Maybe because the Vietnamese were 2000+ old, advanced, bellicose culture (see Sino-Vietnamese wars, first in 43 AD), supported by two nuclear superpowers, and a "fifth column" in the US.
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Bao Dai!
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Good afternoon Von Thoma,
Let me add one more important, behind the scenes, aspect to Hiryu's "exactly on target" post above.
The Vietnam War was fought as a "guns and butter" war. The nation was not mobilized within the usual sense of a nation at war.
Concurrent with the Vietnam War, President Johnson ("LBJ") activated his "Great Society" domestic program. This included, for example, Medicare and Medicaid (1965), Older Americans Act (1965), Omnibus Housing Act (1968), Equal Opportunity Act (1964), and more.........
LBJ introduced - permanent deficit financing into the US economy.
Warfare must be paid for.
There was a reason the next president, President Nixon, removed the US from the era's gold standard agreement. LBJ's Treasury Secretary, Henry Fowler, had "protested" to LBJ that the $US dollar was under serious threat.
Warfare must be paid for.
~ Bob
Let me add one more important, behind the scenes, aspect to Hiryu's "exactly on target" post above.
The Vietnam War was fought as a "guns and butter" war. The nation was not mobilized within the usual sense of a nation at war.
Concurrent with the Vietnam War, President Johnson ("LBJ") activated his "Great Society" domestic program. This included, for example, Medicare and Medicaid (1965), Older Americans Act (1965), Omnibus Housing Act (1968), Equal Opportunity Act (1964), and more.........
LBJ introduced - permanent deficit financing into the US economy.
Warfare must be paid for.
There was a reason the next president, President Nixon, removed the US from the era's gold standard agreement. LBJ's Treasury Secretary, Henry Fowler, had "protested" to LBJ that the $US dollar was under serious threat.
Warfare must be paid for.
~ Bob
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
"guns or butter"
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Hello All :
To Mr. OpanaPointer :
Actually, Lyndon Johnsons was trying to have " Guns AND Butter ". Which is why his entire Administration failed, creating so much inflation of the currency due to uncontrolled credit and money supply expansion that Johnson was forced to take the U.S. off the Silver Standard in 1965, and Nixon was forced to take us off the Gold Standard in 1971, leaving the U.S. with a steadily inflating and deterioratiing fiat currency based on a shaky relationship with Middle East Petroleum Tyrannies.
To Mr. VonThoma ;
As for your original question, " Why USA do not won Vietnam War ? (sic)
1. The U.S. was fighting in support of a small, unpopular faction who, prior to the French Evacuation from Indochina, had almost exclusively been supporters of the French. They worked and fought for the French, they spoke French, and they were Roman Catholics. (Vietnam was appx 7% Catholic, while well over 90% of the South Vietnamese Government officials and military officers were Roman Catholic) Large numbers of these pro-French 'toadies' fled south to avoid reprisals after Dien Bien Phu, and set themselves up as a de-facto anti Viet Minh government. Being strangers in a strange land, so to speak, they were not popular with the South Vietnamese people.
2. The people of the southern portion of VietNam, when polled prior to the 1955 elections, indicated that as many as 85% of the people in the rural districts supported Ho Chi Minh, but he was NOT allowed to be on the ballot. Instead, Ngo Đình Diem, in an election where more people voted for him than were even registered, declared himself the new leader of South Vietnam.
3. Diem created the 'Strategic Hamlet Program ' which, while publicly touted as the means to protect the rural people from the Viet Cong, was actually created to prevent them from farming their privately owned lands, and, as a result, these farms were seized by the Saigon Government for non-payment of taxes, and auctioned off, invariably to wealthy Catholic members of the ruling clique. This further strengthend the position of the Viet Cong, especially when U.S. Troops were involved in forcibly removing Vietnamese peasants from their lands and placing them in the concentration camps that were the Strategic Hamlets.
4. The U.S became involved in the area under Eisenhower, who authorized operations to both destabilize North VietNam and to wipe out the supporters of the Viet Minh in South Vietnam. In 1964, during the course of one joint U.S.-RVN operation to carry out assasinations and murders in the North , North Vietnamese torpedo boats trapped a mixed force of South Vietnamese Marines and U.S. Navy Seals in North Vietnam, and worked to prevent the U.S. Navy from Exfiltrating them. The U.S.N. destroyers opened fire on the North Vietnamese craft, and this " Gulf of Tonkin Incident ' served as Lyndon Johnson's ' casus belli ' to get the U.S. more involved in what was seen as a deteriorating situation in VietNam.
5. In the effort to destroy the Viet Cong, the U.S. Forces killed tens of thousands of 'suspected' Viet Cong sympathizers, and disrupted the lives and livelihoods of the rural people of South Vietnam, further alienating them from both the U.S. and the Saigon regime, which was seen as increasingly corrupt and innept. Diem, who had little legitimacy as a leader, was toppled by the CIA and the South Vietnamese Army, and replaced by Nguyen Cao Ky. who had NO legitimacy as a leader, and finally by Nguyen Van Thieu, who had. if it was possible, EVEN LESS legitimacy and support than Ky....
6. The U.S. and ARVN forces embarked on a series of programs aimed at 'Rural Pacification' that only succeeded in further alienating the people of South Vietnam. Programs such as the widespread shooting of rural water buffalo from helicopters to prevent their use by the Viet Cong did nothing but impoverish and enrage the rural peasantry. Incompetent U.S. Military leaders such as William Westmoreland, who, after five years in VietNam, still could not correctly pronounce the name of South VietNam's president, coupled with the increased perception in the United States among the Baby Boom Generation that the U.S. Government had no clue as to how to deal with the situation, led to widespread anti war protests in the United States, evasion of conscription, and a breakdown of morale in the U.S. forces in Vietnam, as exemplified the increased use of narcotics and the 'fragging' murders of officers by disaffected soldiers.
7. Military disasters such as the fighting for ' Hamburger Hill ', and the tragic Laotian Incursion, further weakened the U.S. Military's reputation, and the toppling of Prince Norodom Sihanouk's government in Cambodia, and his replacement by a U.S. puppet in the person of General Lon Nol, rather than providing a strong ' Flank ' to the U.S. forces, only served to widen the war, and increase U.S. casualties. Bombing campaigns in both the North and 'South failed to achieve objectives, either militarily or politically, and only increased the loss of both U.S. manpower and extremely expensive hardware in the form of B-52s and F-4 Phantoms. It has been pointed out many times that, on occasion, the U.S.A.F. and the U.S.N. expended ordnance worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and aircraft worth MILLIONS of dollars to destroy targets that were worth a few thousand dollars at most.
8. The situation in the United States was even further inflamed when is was revealed that U.S. forces had engaged in a grueome massacre of unarmed civilians in the Suong Mai Province. The farcical efforts of the U.S. Military to ' bring the guilty to justice' resulted in everyone ultimately being aquitted, despite voluminous credible evidence of their guilt. Ultimately, those members of the U.S. Military who served honorably found themselves tarred with the brush of ' Baby Killers '. leading to further dissatisfaction and dissension in the United States. This was not helped when it was revealed that the Pentagon was engaging in a systematic program to punish veterans by placing secret numbers on their discharge papers that identified them as everything from bed-wetters, homosexuals, drug addicts, and thieves. This was done without knowledge of the veterans, and when it was revealed, further discredited the U.S. Military in the eyes of the American People
9. After the collapse of the Johnson Administration, President Nixon, immediately upon taking office, began withdrawing troops from South East Asia. At the same time, he initiated a series of Peace Talks with North VietNam, which were ironically located in Paris, to try to save the regime in Saigon and preserve the reputation of the U.S. This latter effort failed on both fronts. Almost as soon as the last U.S. Soldier left South East Asia, the regimes of Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam collapsed. There was a widespread flight of refugees, and, to the anger of many, President Nguyen Van Thieu fled Saigon with eight tons of GOLD on a chartered jet liner. ( sixteen tons of gold were left behind, falling into the hands of the PRVN, who used it to partially settle their war debts with the Soviet Union.
10. Saigon was renamed Ho Chi Minh City.
So, to answer, succinctly, the question, " Why USA do not won Vietnam War ? "
1. The U.S. had stupid, incompetent Politicians relying on stupid, incompetent Military Officers and stupid incompetent Intelligence Agencies who got us engaged a war in which the U.S. was fighting for the WRONG SIDE.
This is what we call, ' Triple Yatzee ! '
But, it must be noted, the United States ended up with a VERY nice, decorative BLACK WALL in Washington, D.C.
And,while some American Military officers who regretfully stopped worrying about Vietnam and anything to do with it in early 1973, because they saw it as a ' dead issue ' , the rest of the United States were left with a deep wound that is still not completely healed. The patriotism of an entire generation was damaged, our trust in our government to act virtuously and to tell us the truth was gone, and the reputation of the U.S. Military was forever tarnished.
But Hey, now you can get a really good bowl of Pho in Sunnyvale, California !
Respectfully :
Paul R. Ward
To Mr. OpanaPointer :
Actually, Lyndon Johnsons was trying to have " Guns AND Butter ". Which is why his entire Administration failed, creating so much inflation of the currency due to uncontrolled credit and money supply expansion that Johnson was forced to take the U.S. off the Silver Standard in 1965, and Nixon was forced to take us off the Gold Standard in 1971, leaving the U.S. with a steadily inflating and deterioratiing fiat currency based on a shaky relationship with Middle East Petroleum Tyrannies.
To Mr. VonThoma ;
As for your original question, " Why USA do not won Vietnam War ? (sic)
1. The U.S. was fighting in support of a small, unpopular faction who, prior to the French Evacuation from Indochina, had almost exclusively been supporters of the French. They worked and fought for the French, they spoke French, and they were Roman Catholics. (Vietnam was appx 7% Catholic, while well over 90% of the South Vietnamese Government officials and military officers were Roman Catholic) Large numbers of these pro-French 'toadies' fled south to avoid reprisals after Dien Bien Phu, and set themselves up as a de-facto anti Viet Minh government. Being strangers in a strange land, so to speak, they were not popular with the South Vietnamese people.
2. The people of the southern portion of VietNam, when polled prior to the 1955 elections, indicated that as many as 85% of the people in the rural districts supported Ho Chi Minh, but he was NOT allowed to be on the ballot. Instead, Ngo Đình Diem, in an election where more people voted for him than were even registered, declared himself the new leader of South Vietnam.
3. Diem created the 'Strategic Hamlet Program ' which, while publicly touted as the means to protect the rural people from the Viet Cong, was actually created to prevent them from farming their privately owned lands, and, as a result, these farms were seized by the Saigon Government for non-payment of taxes, and auctioned off, invariably to wealthy Catholic members of the ruling clique. This further strengthend the position of the Viet Cong, especially when U.S. Troops were involved in forcibly removing Vietnamese peasants from their lands and placing them in the concentration camps that were the Strategic Hamlets.
4. The U.S became involved in the area under Eisenhower, who authorized operations to both destabilize North VietNam and to wipe out the supporters of the Viet Minh in South Vietnam. In 1964, during the course of one joint U.S.-RVN operation to carry out assasinations and murders in the North , North Vietnamese torpedo boats trapped a mixed force of South Vietnamese Marines and U.S. Navy Seals in North Vietnam, and worked to prevent the U.S. Navy from Exfiltrating them. The U.S.N. destroyers opened fire on the North Vietnamese craft, and this " Gulf of Tonkin Incident ' served as Lyndon Johnson's ' casus belli ' to get the U.S. more involved in what was seen as a deteriorating situation in VietNam.
5. In the effort to destroy the Viet Cong, the U.S. Forces killed tens of thousands of 'suspected' Viet Cong sympathizers, and disrupted the lives and livelihoods of the rural people of South Vietnam, further alienating them from both the U.S. and the Saigon regime, which was seen as increasingly corrupt and innept. Diem, who had little legitimacy as a leader, was toppled by the CIA and the South Vietnamese Army, and replaced by Nguyen Cao Ky. who had NO legitimacy as a leader, and finally by Nguyen Van Thieu, who had. if it was possible, EVEN LESS legitimacy and support than Ky....
6. The U.S. and ARVN forces embarked on a series of programs aimed at 'Rural Pacification' that only succeeded in further alienating the people of South Vietnam. Programs such as the widespread shooting of rural water buffalo from helicopters to prevent their use by the Viet Cong did nothing but impoverish and enrage the rural peasantry. Incompetent U.S. Military leaders such as William Westmoreland, who, after five years in VietNam, still could not correctly pronounce the name of South VietNam's president, coupled with the increased perception in the United States among the Baby Boom Generation that the U.S. Government had no clue as to how to deal with the situation, led to widespread anti war protests in the United States, evasion of conscription, and a breakdown of morale in the U.S. forces in Vietnam, as exemplified the increased use of narcotics and the 'fragging' murders of officers by disaffected soldiers.
7. Military disasters such as the fighting for ' Hamburger Hill ', and the tragic Laotian Incursion, further weakened the U.S. Military's reputation, and the toppling of Prince Norodom Sihanouk's government in Cambodia, and his replacement by a U.S. puppet in the person of General Lon Nol, rather than providing a strong ' Flank ' to the U.S. forces, only served to widen the war, and increase U.S. casualties. Bombing campaigns in both the North and 'South failed to achieve objectives, either militarily or politically, and only increased the loss of both U.S. manpower and extremely expensive hardware in the form of B-52s and F-4 Phantoms. It has been pointed out many times that, on occasion, the U.S.A.F. and the U.S.N. expended ordnance worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and aircraft worth MILLIONS of dollars to destroy targets that were worth a few thousand dollars at most.
8. The situation in the United States was even further inflamed when is was revealed that U.S. forces had engaged in a grueome massacre of unarmed civilians in the Suong Mai Province. The farcical efforts of the U.S. Military to ' bring the guilty to justice' resulted in everyone ultimately being aquitted, despite voluminous credible evidence of their guilt. Ultimately, those members of the U.S. Military who served honorably found themselves tarred with the brush of ' Baby Killers '. leading to further dissatisfaction and dissension in the United States. This was not helped when it was revealed that the Pentagon was engaging in a systematic program to punish veterans by placing secret numbers on their discharge papers that identified them as everything from bed-wetters, homosexuals, drug addicts, and thieves. This was done without knowledge of the veterans, and when it was revealed, further discredited the U.S. Military in the eyes of the American People
9. After the collapse of the Johnson Administration, President Nixon, immediately upon taking office, began withdrawing troops from South East Asia. At the same time, he initiated a series of Peace Talks with North VietNam, which were ironically located in Paris, to try to save the regime in Saigon and preserve the reputation of the U.S. This latter effort failed on both fronts. Almost as soon as the last U.S. Soldier left South East Asia, the regimes of Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam collapsed. There was a widespread flight of refugees, and, to the anger of many, President Nguyen Van Thieu fled Saigon with eight tons of GOLD on a chartered jet liner. ( sixteen tons of gold were left behind, falling into the hands of the PRVN, who used it to partially settle their war debts with the Soviet Union.
10. Saigon was renamed Ho Chi Minh City.
So, to answer, succinctly, the question, " Why USA do not won Vietnam War ? "
1. The U.S. had stupid, incompetent Politicians relying on stupid, incompetent Military Officers and stupid incompetent Intelligence Agencies who got us engaged a war in which the U.S. was fighting for the WRONG SIDE.
This is what we call, ' Triple Yatzee ! '
But, it must be noted, the United States ended up with a VERY nice, decorative BLACK WALL in Washington, D.C.
And,while some American Military officers who regretfully stopped worrying about Vietnam and anything to do with it in early 1973, because they saw it as a ' dead issue ' , the rest of the United States were left with a deep wound that is still not completely healed. The patriotism of an entire generation was damaged, our trust in our government to act virtuously and to tell us the truth was gone, and the reputation of the U.S. Military was forever tarnished.
But Hey, now you can get a really good bowl of Pho in Sunnyvale, California !
Respectfully :
Paul R. Ward
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Plain Old Dave
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Thoughts.1. The U.S. had stupid, incompetent Politicians relying on stupid, incompetent Military Officers and stupid incompetent Intelligence Agencies who got us engaged a war in which the U.S. was fighting for the WRONG SIDE
1. Definitely not the "wrong side." Both History and human nature trstify to the unsustainable nature of communism.
2. Officers. Those who led America's military in the Vietnam era were the junior and field grade officers of WW2 and Korea. Civilian leadership, McNamara was part of the team that restored Ford after HF2, Henry Ford II, took over. The US military leadership in the 1960s were quintessential professionals. The errors were 1) underestimating Vietnamese resolve and 2) using Vietnam as a training ground to prepare America's Army for a Third World War on the plains of Europe; officers were sent to Vietnam to get leadership experience to qualify them for promotion. Captain Smith would spend a year in Vietnam, promote to Major, and go to West Germany or South Korea possibly.
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Good morning Paul,
Head Note: I'm not commenting on the "politically - charged" words eg "murder", "stupid", "incompetent", because of typing constraints. Add dry-cleaned, well- pressed jungle fatigues and I'll find the time to comment.
Ref:
6. It occurred but not widespread.
7. Wasn't it the "Cambodia" incursion ? The same probably can be applied to Laos (Lima Site 85) but the term from the Vietnam War's history attaches to Cambodia.
8. If Suong Mai Province was location of Lt William Calley's Mei Lai massacre, Yes. Three US Governors made public statements in support of Lt Calley. One of these Governors later became a US President (President Jimmy Carter). All were not acquitted. A suicide occurred in Indiana after the veteran was interviewed by Army CID, ... The Calley event was so politically charged President Nixon couldn't do much.
YES - You are correct. It's been obliterated from US military history. There were "secret numbers" on their discharge papers. I hold the "Business Week" magazine issue that reported on this. My compliments to you for your research of history.
9. Actually, the real "Peace Talks" were November, 1971 (Kissinger in Beijing) and February, 1972 (Nixon in Beijing - "Shanghai 1"/First Joint Communique). The Kissinger-Le Duc Tu 1973 Paris wine and cheese tasting event was for domestic US public consumption.
"Reputation" is actually, as you're using the word, somewhat politically-charged. From the public perspective, you're correct. Yet, after Nixon and Mao had some Mao Tai " liquor with the large banquet, Boeing China, Inc entered the Chinese market and many other US companies followed. Otherwise, we'd all be working in Waffle Hou .....well, maybe China Garden Dim Sum pig-out buffet.
~ Bob
Head Note: I'm not commenting on the "politically - charged" words eg "murder", "stupid", "incompetent", because of typing constraints. Add dry-cleaned, well- pressed jungle fatigues and I'll find the time to comment.
Ref:
6. It occurred but not widespread.
7. Wasn't it the "Cambodia" incursion ? The same probably can be applied to Laos (Lima Site 85) but the term from the Vietnam War's history attaches to Cambodia.
8. If Suong Mai Province was location of Lt William Calley's Mei Lai massacre, Yes. Three US Governors made public statements in support of Lt Calley. One of these Governors later became a US President (President Jimmy Carter). All were not acquitted. A suicide occurred in Indiana after the veteran was interviewed by Army CID, ... The Calley event was so politically charged President Nixon couldn't do much.
YES - You are correct. It's been obliterated from US military history. There were "secret numbers" on their discharge papers. I hold the "Business Week" magazine issue that reported on this. My compliments to you for your research of history.
9. Actually, the real "Peace Talks" were November, 1971 (Kissinger in Beijing) and February, 1972 (Nixon in Beijing - "Shanghai 1"/First Joint Communique). The Kissinger-Le Duc Tu 1973 Paris wine and cheese tasting event was for domestic US public consumption.
"Reputation" is actually, as you're using the word, somewhat politically-charged. From the public perspective, you're correct. Yet, after Nixon and Mao had some Mao Tai " liquor with the large banquet, Boeing China, Inc entered the Chinese market and many other US companies followed. Otherwise, we'd all be working in Waffle Hou .....well, maybe China Garden Dim Sum pig-out buffet.
~ Bob
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Sid Guttridge
- Member
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- Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19
Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
The USA did not win the Vietnam War because it set constraints on itself as a result of which the North Vietnamese could not lose it.
The USA could have over run North Vietnam at any time, but chose not to do so. Therefore, North Vietnam could not lose.
In these circumstances, all North Vietnam had to do was to keep its forces in the field in South Vietnam until the USA went home, for whatever reason.
Cheers,
Sid.
The USA could have over run North Vietnam at any time, but chose not to do so. Therefore, North Vietnam could not lose.
In these circumstances, all North Vietnam had to do was to keep its forces in the field in South Vietnam until the USA went home, for whatever reason.
Cheers,
Sid.
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Concur.
Or, as they say "We were winning when I left." (Never mind that I wasn't conscious when I left.)
Or, as they say "We were winning when I left." (Never mind that I wasn't conscious when I left.)
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James A Pratt III
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Causes
The South Vietnamese Goverment was inept, corrupt, unpopular ect
Inept US leadership LBJ and Westmorland are the two most inept
The total dedication of the North Vietnamese goverment to win at all costs
youtube
Westmoreland the general who lost Vietnam
Why the US failed in Vietnam
The South Vietnamese Goverment was inept, corrupt, unpopular ect
Inept US leadership LBJ and Westmorland are the two most inept
The total dedication of the North Vietnamese goverment to win at all costs
youtube
Westmoreland the general who lost Vietnam
Why the US failed in Vietnam
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Why USA do not won Vietnam War ?
Was the North's government really that much better than the South's?