Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

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Edward L. Hsiao
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Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#1

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 23 Apr 2019, 08:53

I wonder if the Waffen-SS had sabotage teams of two to four men that can be dropped behind enemy lines by Fi 156 Storch flown by Waffen-SS pilots? It is just a thought. I know there was no recorded actions of them before. Otto Skorzeny was pretty much in charge of the SS Special Operations. I don't know if he thought of those propose actions before. Skorzeny never mentioned them in his memoirs. He had carried out special missions that were still secret even today.


Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#2

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 24 Apr 2019, 20:48

I know that there were known instances of Luftwaffe pilots flying Fi-156 Storchs and landing behind enemy lines to drop of Luftwaffe sabotage teams. Maybe there were Heer pilots that flew Fi-156 Storchs before on light bombing raids over enemy lines or dropping off Heer sabotage teams on enemy soil.
Edward L. Hsiao


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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#3

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 29 Apr 2019, 09:09

I know that captured allied aircraft flown by the secret KG 200 had German sabotage teams of four or more being parachuted into enemy territory in 1944 and the few months of 1945. I believe that most of the German sabotage teams with parachutes were from the SS. By the way,I never heard of Kriegsmarine special force ops ever parachute from a German plane before. I know there were no recorded instances before.


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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Apr 2019, 15:06

Hi Edward,

You seem desperate to find what you are looking for.

Until 1944 sneaky-beaky, special forces operations were the realm of the Brandenburgers, who had an association with KG 200. When Skorzeny set up his organisation much of the expertise came from the Brandenburgers. The Brandenburgers fell out of favour when their founder and head, Admiral Canaris, was accused of opposing Hitler in early 1944 and Skorzeny moved into the gap this created.

The Kriegsmarine had no equivalent of the UK's Royal Marine Commandos. This is one reason why the Germans could do nothing to stop the Danish and French fleets from scuttling themselves in 1942-43.

I doubt Skorzeny carried out any missions that are still secret today. What were they? Who is keeping them secret? How would you know anyway, if that were the case?

Besides, Skorzeny was something of a very considerable self publicist who would probably have been only too keen to give his somewhat overblown reputation a further boost.

There were certainly some "stay behind" operations mounted towards the end of the war, but these are more overlooked than kept secret.

Cheers,

A sceptical Sid.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#5

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 01 May 2019, 08:23

Operation "Beehive" I think was a Luftwaffe operation in 1945. Luftwaffe pilots landed their Fi 156s behind enemy lines and dropped of Luftwaffe sabotage teams for destroying Soviet railroads and other installations I think. Since there were pilots from the Waffen-SS and Heer that flew Fi 156 Storchs before,I wonder if these pilots from both German services ever dropped of German sabotage teams behind enemy lines on the Eastern Front,thus maybe trying to follow the Luftwaffe actions. I guess I will never know for sure. The German naval aviators of coarse never had flown Fi 156s ever and never had dropped of German sabotage teams ever. I admit that I was itching for an answer.


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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#6

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 May 2019, 14:47

Hi Edward,

You post: "Since there were pilots from the Waffen-SS and Heer that flew Fi 156 Storchs before....."

Were there? I was under the impression that Germany did not have an equivalent of the UK's Army Air Corps and that the Luftwaffe's Aufklärungsgruppe (H)'s supplied the pilots and planes for the Fi 156's used for tactical reconnaissance and spotting.

Where did you get your information from?

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#7

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 02 May 2019, 10:50

Well,I seen pictures of Waffen-SS pilots with their pilot badges on and usually flew Fi 156s on courier and liaison flights taking high ranking Waffen-SS officers who want to scout the battlefront. There were a few Heer pilots that flew a small number of German helicopters over the battlefront. They also flew Fi 156s usually in taking Heer generals who want a tour over the battlefront as well.

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#8

Post by eindhoven » 02 May 2019, 16:12

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:
02 May 2019, 10:50
Well,I seen pictures of Waffen-SS pilots with their pilot badges on and usually flew Fi 156s on courier and liaison flights taking high ranking Waffen-SS officers who want to scout the battlefront. There were a few Heer pilots that flew a small number of German helicopters over the battlefront. They also flew Fi 156s usually in taking Heer generals who want a tour over the battlefront as well.

Edward L. Hsiao
Hi Edward,

Where did you get your information from? Meaning a primary source for your claim that there were dedicated 'Waffen-SS pilots' as you call them just taking aviation assets away from the Luftwaffe whenever they felt like it to perform any manner of mission they saw fit to use them for.
Well,I seen pictures
I could claim I saw a picture of a Luftwaffe pilot in a space suit but that does not make it real or that the Luftwaffe flew space missions and setup a secret base on the moon.

In this image from Christopher Ailsby the SS-Ostuf. had been a Pilot in the Bavarian Air force in the First World War but that does not mean he flew some super secret missions in WW2 or commandeered a Fieseler Storch from the Luftwaffe to go fly whatever mission they wanted. Can you imagine the logistics you are talking about? Who maintains the aircraft? How does it get moved from operational area to another? How does it get fuel? If that was the case logically don't you think the SS would've been the ones flying Der Führer around instead of the Luftwaffe?
picture 174.jpg
picture 174.jpg (74.91 KiB) Viewed 1415 times

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 May 2019, 18:26

Hi Edward,

You have simply repeated your original claim with a little embroidery.

However, you haven't answered my question about your sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#10

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 20 May 2019, 09:23

I know that from past topics of this forum,some Waffen-SS divisions had their own Fi 156 Störche [Storks] of their own and their trained pilots of their own. I forgot what Heer divisions have their own Fi 156 Störche and their pilots. Of coarse if you don't believe me fine. I will admit that I don't have a firm source yet to give to you.

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#11

Post by Cult Icon » 22 May 2019, 21:41

Edward L. Hsiao wrote:
20 May 2019, 09:23
I know that from past topics of this forum,some Waffen-SS divisions had their own Fi 156 Störche [Storks] of their own and their trained pilots of their own. I forgot what Heer divisions have their own Fi 156 Störche and their pilots. Of coarse if you don't believe me fine. I will admit that I don't have a firm source yet to give to you.
Numerous Panzer divisions in the offensive phase of the war also had their own recon aircraft attached. This practice seems to have ended in the defensive phase of the war.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 May 2019, 07:30

Hi Edaward,

It is not a matter of not believing you. It is a matter of you not offering any evidence or sources to go on.

Your (or anyone else's) simple claims are not evidence in themselves. Your claims plus some sort of evidence or source might be.

There are posters here (not necessarily me) with plenty of expertise who are perfectly willing to help you, but you offer them no leads upon which to start. So why should they bother?

You seem to expect others to do your research for you while offering nothing but speculation yourself. Why not help them by giving them some hard facts to start building upon?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#13

Post by steve248 » 27 May 2019, 18:08

I wonder how feasible it was for a Fieseler Storch to drop parachutists? It looks awfully dangerous for an inexperienced parachutist to avoid hitting the tail section on exit. One reason why the British Lysanders landed to infiltrate agents. And the Lysanders look more sturdy than the Storchs.
One of the biggest problems the Abwehr and the SD faced with their parachute agents is they had little or no parachute training; just told what to do when landing.
I expect the Storchs simply landed, the one or possibly two agents got out, the Storch turned into the wind and immediately took off. It would have been a tight fit with a pilot and two passengers. The British Lysanders rarely took two passengers - for larger drops they used the Lockheed Hudsons.

Are the posters above sure the Waffen-SS dropped teams behind enemy lines? I would have thought the Divisional leadership had more things to think about than sending sabotage teams themselves. This was more a job for Skorzeny's RSHA VI S which dealt with sabotage. The absorption of the Abwehr by RSHA in mid 1944 brought their respective sabotage experts together. More on paper than in practice, and the practice at the front was set in motion by the FAKs and FATs.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#14

Post by eindhoven » 28 May 2019, 23:28

Are the posters above sure the Waffen-SS dropped teams behind enemy lines?
Poster- There is only one, Edward is the one making unsourced claims. As for the past topics existing on this forum Edward claims exist to support his premise that the W-SS had dedicated pilots with their own integral aircraft in Waffen-SS divisions I searched and found none. There is however this in another section on Waffen-SS pilots including my rebuttal.

viewtopic.php?f=38&p=2205856#p2205856

No disrespect at all to Edward. Its a legitimate question he raised initially and may have been undertaken by RSHA but not at W-SS divisional levels as that does not fit their TO&E or overall mission. I have not been able to source anything. Even blowhard Skorzeny was flown off the Apennine in a Luftwaffe Piloted Storch. Not a Waffen-SS pilot at the controls. The skilled pilot of the Fieseler Storch was Hauptmann Heinrich Gerlach, General Kurt Student's personal pilot and one of the three other men involved to be awarded the Ritterkreuz.

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Re: Waffen-SS Sabotage Teams?

#15

Post by steve248 » 12 Feb 2023, 12:47

Since writing the above my book on the RSHA was published last year. It used the Counter-Intelligence War Room situation and liquidation reports (British and US agents wrote the reports) for each RSHA Amt. There was no report on RSHA VI S so I used the extensive US interrogation reports of Skorzeny and his adjutant Radl. They explained their secret operations, Radl being more honest then the exaggerations of Skorzeny. I also included reports by Abwehr men taken into the various sections of the Mil Amt. You will not be surprised by the Allied view of all this: abject failure, too little too late.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/RSHA-Reich-Sec ... C83&sr=1-1

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