where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

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MarkN
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by MarkN » 02 May 2019 22:12

doogal wrote:
02 May 2019 18:05
Was von Kliest aware of his Army Group commanders involvement in the decision to "halt" the PG`s armour, or did he assign the issuing of the order to Hitler post fact. Is there any record of communication between von Kleist and von Runstedt or was the decision made without his ( von Kleists) direct involvement,( i.e. was von Kleist approached for an opinion).
The chronology of the events are documented and have been discussed ad nauseum over the years. Even AHF posters have been at it for 15 years or so.

Unfortunately, as is normal on AHF, nobody ever takes any notice what other people post and simply bang on about what they want the evidence to mean so that it 'proves' their pet theory.

I doubt Kleist on 23/24 May knew of the bitchfight going on between OKH on one side and HG.A & AOK.4 on the other. Why should he? Ironically, it was from an overly pessimistic panzerlage report from Kleist that got Kluge worrying and suggesting a pause. Rundstedt took the advice and issued the infamous halt order. Brauchitsch countermanded. Hitler was visiting the front and decided to accept the advice of Rundstedt and supported and endorsed his order by overuling Brauchitsch.

2 days later Kleist brings up the issue directly with Hitler who confirms he ordered the halt. I doubt the pair had a cosy chat going into the minutae of how Hitler had had to step in and separate the Heer bitchfighters.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 May 2019 23:17

MarkN wrote:
02 May 2019 22:12
2 days later Kleist brings up the issue directly with Hitler who confirms he ordered the halt. I doubt the pair had a cosy chat going into the minutae of how Hitler had had to step in and separate the Heer bitchfighters.
AHF really needs a "like" function for posts like this. :D
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by aurelien wolff » 03 May 2019 05:12

I've found this video on the halt:
https://youtu.be/Q95__gXJ9l0

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Peter89 » 03 May 2019 05:21

Richard Anderson wrote:
02 May 2019 23:17
MarkN wrote:
02 May 2019 22:12
2 days later Kleist brings up the issue directly with Hitler who confirms he ordered the halt. I doubt the pair had a cosy chat going into the minutae of how Hitler had had to step in and separate the Heer bitchfighters.
AHF really needs a "like" function for posts like this. :D
I agree!

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 03 May 2019 06:39

MarkN wrote:
02 May 2019 22:12
Ironically, it was from an overly pessimistic panzerlage report from Kleist that got Kluge worrying and suggesting a pause. Rundstedt took the advice and issued the infamous halt order. Brauchitsch countermanded. Hitler was visiting the front and decided to accept the advice of Rundstedt and supported and endorsed his order by overuling Brauchitsch.

2 days later Kleist brings up the issue directly with Hitler who confirms he ordered the halt. I doubt the pair had a cosy chat going into the minutae of how Hitler had had to step in and separate the Heer bitchfighters.
The theme of Kleist's retreat from the heights was definitely not discussed. I am the first who posted these words on the forum! In your comment, they are simply ignored. May 23/24, Hitler's order to stop, 26 conversation directly with Hitler!
You are a little falsifier of history. :milsmile:
“I must say,” Kleist later recalled, “the British were able to escape from the trap at Dunkirk, which we prepared for them, only thanks to Hitler. Between Arras and Dunkirk runs the channel. I have already passed this channel, and my troops occupied the heights that dominate Flanders. My tank group completely controlled Dunkirk and the whole area in which the British were trapped. The British would not have been able to make their way to Dunkirk, since I cut them all the way. And then Hitler personally ordered me to withdraw troops from these heights ”[99].
Kleist underestimated the role of Rundstedt in decision making. However, Hitler, who was eager to confer victory laurels, of course, was responsible for the fact that he did not allow Kleist to crush the expeditionary forces outside Dunkirk. A few days later, Kleist met Hitler at the airfield in Cambrai and, picking up his courage, told the Führer that they had missed the opportunity to destroy the enemy in Dunkirk. The Fuhrer replied: “Maybe. But I didn’t want to send tanks to the Flandrish swamps, but the British would not return to fight anyway. ”[100] On another occasion, Hitler referred to technical problems and the need to prepare for an offensive against the rest of the French troops.
1. Stop-order.
2. Order to retreat from the heights.
3. Meeting with Hitler on May 26.

MarkN draws conclusions from points 1 and 3, ignoring point 2.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 03 May 2019 06:50

In the history of a lot of white spots. Almost ignored orders of Hitler May 26 Army Group "B", which changed the angle of attack. Instead of hitting the rear, a frontal attack from the south. The British thought May 28 it will end, when two days earlier, Operation Dynamo was launched. In fact, all evacuated. Army Group "B" of von Boсk, without the intervention of Hitler on May 28 went to the coast. All the more considering the surrender of the Belgian army.

The orders of Hitler Army Group "B", their influence on the course of operations is completely ignored by historians and even German generals in memoirs. So much carried away by the Rundstedt group.

Why within days? Historians do not respond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_evacuation

A special service attended by King George VI was held in Westminster Abbey on 26 May, which was declared a national day of prayer. The Archbishop of Canterbury led prayers "for our soldiers in dire peril in France". Similar prayers were offered in synagogues and churches throughout the UK that day, confirming to the public their suspicion of the desperate plight of the troops. Just before 19:00 on 26 May, Churchill ordered Dynamo to begin, by which time 28,000 men had already departed. Initial plans called for the recovery of 45,000 men from the BEF within two days, at which time German troops were expected to block further evacuation. Only 25,000 men escaped during this period, including 7,669 on the first day.

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The Dunkirk 'halt order'..... AGAIN!

Post by MarkN » 03 May 2019 11:29

Whilst it is manifestly true that Hitler issued a halt order on the 24th, it should be recognised that the purpose of this order was not to halt the advance per se - Kleist had already halted the evening before according to Rundstedt's original halt order. The purpose of Hitler's halt order was to halt the internal Heer bitchfight and assert his authority upon the squabbling generals.

And nobody bothers to mention Kleist's halt order of the 22nd. Whilst not directly related to the Dunkirk escape, the reason for it is identical to the understanding of Kluge and Rundstedt's thinking the following day.

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Re: The Dunkirk 'halt order'..... AGAIN!

Post by jesk » 03 May 2019 21:38

MarkN wrote:
03 May 2019 11:29
The purpose of Hitler's halt order was to halt the internal Heer bitchfight and assert his authority upon the squabbling generals.
There were no quarrels and conflicts. Hitler gave the order only to save British from capture. Frizer version about the statement of power, but is conjectures. The main thing that British escaped.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 03 May 2019 22:01

Kleist did not give any stop orders on May 22. It's all ripped out of context.

http://militera.lib.ru/db/0/pdf/halder_eng4.pdf

22 May 1940

The Armor drive on Calais, ordered by us, has been temporarily halted by AGp.A on the line St. Pol - Etaples, and will not be resumed until the situation at Arras is clear.

Also since 1200, KLeist is attacking west of the line Avesnes-le-Comte - Houdain- Ath- St. Omer, pushing with XXXXI-Corps on the right and XIX Corps on the left wing northward between St.-Pol and the sea.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 05 May 2019 14:37

MarkN wrote:
29 Apr 2019 14:21
...
[I believe Hitler's decision to attack Russia in June 1941 flowed from his ideology. That ideology is to be found in Mein Kampf.
However, real life is different to ideological desires. At times it was stategically prudent to be best of friends with the judeo-bolsheviks. BARBAROSSA was never designed to erase judeo-bolshevism, it was a limited land grab.
Image
What does Hitler answer the questions of his generals?
"The Fuhrer: The plans of England at the present time can not be accurately determined. Whether the British enemy will continue to be limited to a war of attrition, or he will try to land his troops on the Iberian Peninsula or in West Africa. Against such attempts at disembarkation or in other necessary cases, mobile reserves must be prepared. For this purpose serve both tank divisions located in Germany, as well as the newly created tank units." And then Hitler promises 400 engines, when all issues are finally resolved. As you can see, even being in Russia, the Fuhrer first of all thinks of England.
It seems to me that Hitler's real ideology was 'love-hatred englandism'.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 05 May 2019 22:57

With the help of England, Hitler tried to divert attention from Moscow.

http://srn.su/?p=3583

The main element of social management is to divert people's attention from important problems and decisions made by political and economic ruling circles, by constantly saturating the information space with insignificant messages. “Constantly distract the attention of citizens from real social problems, switching it to topics that have no real meaning. To ensure that citizens are constantly busy with something and they have no time to think", -writes Chomsky.

MarkN
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by MarkN » 06 May 2019 21:53

AbollonPolweder wrote:
05 May 2019 14:37
MarkN wrote:
29 Apr 2019 14:21
[I believe Hitler's decision to attack Russia in June 1941 flowed from his ideology. That ideology is to be found in Mein Kampf.
However, real life is different to ideological desires. At times it was stategically prudent to be best of friends with the judeo-bolsheviks. BARBAROSSA was never designed to erase judeo-bolshevism, it was a limited land grab.
ImageWhat does Hitler answer the questions of his generals?
"The Fuhrer: The plans of England at the present time can not be accurately determined. Whether the British enemy will continue to be limited to a war of attrition, or he will try to land his troops on the Iberian Peninsula or in West Africa. Against such attempts at disembarkation or in other necessary cases, mobile reserves must be prepared. For this purpose serve both tank divisions located in Germany, as well as the newly created tank units." And then Hitler promises 400 engines, when all issues are finally resolved. As you can see, even being in Russia, the Fuhrer first of all thinks of England.
It seems to me that Hitler's real ideology was 'love-hatred englandism'.
Yes, I know what the document says.

It seems to me jolly good evidence of the complete lack of coherence in German strategic thought and effort. You do realize that this contradicts the daft narrative that the purpose of BARBAROSSA was to coerce the British to capitulate, don't you?

It is also evidence that Hitler had many obsessions, changed his narrative every time his lips moved and couldn't be trusted as far as he could be thrown.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 07 May 2019 15:16

jesk wrote:
05 May 2019 22:57
With the help of England, Hitler tried to divert attention from Moscow.

http://srn.su/?p=3583

The main element of social management is to divert people's attention from important problems and decisions made by political and economic ruling circles, by constantly saturating the information space with insignificant messages. “Constantly distract the attention of citizens from real social problems, switching it to topics that have no real meaning. To ensure that citizens are constantly busy with something and they have no time to think", -writes Chomsky.
Image
If you look at KTB OKW on December 5, 1940, you will see that the discussion of the operation Felix took longer than Barbarossa. The generals themselves were distracted from the Moscow. The Gibraltar was more important to them than the USSR.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 07 May 2019 15:56

MarkN wrote:
06 May 2019 21:53
...
Yes, I know what the document says.

It seems to me jolly good evidence of the complete lack of coherence in German strategic thought and effort. You do realize that this contradicts the daft narrative that the purpose of BARBAROSSA was to coerce the British to capitulate, don't you?

It is also evidence that Hitler had many obsessions, changed his narrative every time his lips moved and couldn't be trusted as far as he could be thrown.
So far I do not understand for what purpose Hitler as a parrot insists on the USSR as the last hope of England. In top secret documents, not in Felkischer Beobachter.
Image
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 07 May 2019 16:06

MarkN wrote:
06 May 2019 21:53
...
It is also evidence that Hitler had many obsessions, changed his narrative every time his lips moved and couldn't be trusted as far as he could be thrown.
There is and other evidence, for example:
Image
As you can see, Adolf argues that from the very beginning he spoke of the secondary importance of Moscow.
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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