where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

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jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 07 May 2019 16:53

AbollonPolweder wrote:
07 May 2019 16:06
MarkN wrote:
06 May 2019 21:53
...
It is also evidence that Hitler had many obsessions, changed his narrative every time his lips moved and couldn't be trusted as far as he could be thrown.
There is and other evidence, for example:
Image
As you can see, Adolf argues that from the very beginning he spoke of the secondary importance of Moscow.
In the context of schemes and evidence; not the city matters. 70% of the Red Army (including the newly formed armies) were on the Moscow direction. Von Bock insisted on their destruction. It is difficult to imagine that the Russians would be able to restore the front after such a rout. This is the end. Attacking Uman and Kiev, Hitler took the threat from the main Soviet forces.
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
06 May 2019 05:44
Here are the two images from Stumbling Colossus I meant to include with OP:

Second, the RKKA field armies' dispositions in late July and armies forming to the rear:

Image
http://militera.lib.ru/db/bock_f/08.html

22/8/41

I called Halder, clarified my position and said that I consider this operation ill-considered, since it primarily prevents the offensive from going eastwards. All directives say that the capture of Moscow is not of great importance! I want to destroy the enemy army, and the main forces of this army are concentrated on my front! For this reason, the rotation of a part of the army of the Army Group Center will threaten the implementation of the main task of the Army Group, namely the destruction of the most combat-ready units of the Red Army before the onset of winter.
All in vain! In the evening, an order came from the Supreme Command of the ground forces to transfer "troops from the Gomel area" and, if possible, three more mobile units heading south.

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 07 May 2019 17:01

AbollonPolweder wrote:
07 May 2019 15:56
MarkN wrote:
06 May 2019 21:53
...
Yes, I know what the document says.

It seems to me jolly good evidence of the complete lack of coherence in German strategic thought and effort. You do realize that this contradicts the daft narrative that the purpose of BARBAROSSA was to coerce the British to capitulate, don't you?

It is also evidence that Hitler had many obsessions, changed his narrative every time his lips moved and couldn't be trusted as far as he could be thrown.
So far I do not understand for what purpose Hitler as a parrot insists on the USSR as the last hope of England. In top secret documents, not in Felkischer Beobachter.
Image
On August 18 and 22, Hitler only distracted attention from the USSR with help of England. Speech was conducted about defeat of the USSR in 1941!

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by David Thompson » 08 May 2019 15:16

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AbollonPolweder
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by AbollonPolweder » 08 May 2019 15:50

jesk wrote:
07 May 2019 17:01
...
On August 18 and 22, Hitler only distracted attention from the USSR with help of England. Speech was conducted about defeat of the USSR in 1941!
Whose attention was distracted by Hitler?
https://sites.google.com/site/krieg1941undnarod/
Better to lose with a clever than with a fool to find

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 08 May 2019 21:58

AbollonPolweder wrote:
08 May 2019 15:50
jesk wrote:
07 May 2019 17:01
...
On August 18 and 22, Hitler only distracted attention from the USSR with help of England. Speech was conducted about defeat of the USSR in 1941!
Whose attention was distracted by Hitler?
Tried to divert attention of generals of eastern front. Moscow is nonsense, here is the landing of England in the Pyrenees, something to worry about!

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 09 May 2019 07:44

MarkN wrote:
01 May 2019 18:28
This quote from Roberts is interesting (my underlining).
However, Kleist was underestimating Rundstedt's important role in the initial decision-making, but with Hitler willing to take the ultimate glory for the campaign, he must also take the ultimate blame for not allowing Kleist to take on the BEF outside Dunkirk. When Kleist met Hitler on the airfield at Cambrai a few days later, he had the courage to remark that a great opportunity had been lost at Dunkirk. Hitler replied: "That may be so. But I did not want to send the tanks into the Flanders marshes – and the British won't come back in this war."
And yet, a month or so later he was claiming the invasion of Russia was merely a strategic ploy to knock Britain out of the war!!!!

Treat everything the overpromoted Austrian corporal said with the same degree of credibility as that of ljadw and jesk.... :lol:
The quote of Roberts is not proved and can be considered as an invention .The only proof is Kleist himself .
Besides : there were no marshes in the region, and Hitler knew it, thus ...
What Kleist and Hitler said on the airfield at Cambrai is as credible as what Guderian claimed he and Kleist told each other when they met at the airfield of Montcornet .

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 09 May 2019 07:46

jesk wrote:
28 Apr 2019 21:06
doogal wrote:
28 Apr 2019 15:38
rom Nigel Askey Operation Barbarossa Volume II B P 82
Norway : 123000
AG D West
7th A : 141000
1st A : 106000
15th A : 205000
Reserves : 55000

12th A (Balkans ) : 169000

DAK : 82000

Replacement Army : 1076000

Total : 1960000,of whom less than 900000 for occupation duties . The 2 million figure for occupation forces is wrong .
The figure of 1960000 includes army, WSS, LW ground and Naval Coastal artillery units .
I think it is clear that even a significant reduction of occupation forces and there use in the east would not in any real sense have had a positive effect. In reality it may have hastened Nazi Germanys defeat.
Norway 123000? Why are you fooling yourself? Up to half a million at the peak reached the number of German groups there. I think 4 divisions psychologically comfortable figure for the defense of Norway. But the divisions were 14. Hitler wanted to lose war. And he did it. LOOOL

Order of battle (21 Aug 1943)

At the disposal of Armee Norwegen
- 25. Panzer-Division
- 196. Infanterie-Division
- 274. Infanterie-Division (forming)
- 280. Infanterie-Division
LXXI. Armeekorps
- 230. Infanterie-Division
- 270. Infanterie-Division
- 199. Infanterie-Division
XXXIII. Armeekorps
- 14. Luftwaffen-Feld-Division
- 702. Infanterie-Division
- 181. Infanterie-Division
LXX. Armeekorps
- 269. Infanterie-Division
- 295. Infanterie-Division (forming/in transit)
- 214. Infanterie-Division
- 710. Infanterie-Division
I am talking about June 1941 . August 1943 is irrelevant . And you know it .

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 09 May 2019 08:10

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Apr 2019 10:04
Hi ljadw,

You post, "Sid, you are starting from a wrong point of view: it is not so that Barbarossa failed because the Germans were not strong enough. Barbarossa could succeed with a weaker Ostheer, it also could fail with a stronger Ostheer. Barbarossa failed because the Soviets refused to give up, and, even with a stronger Ostheer the Soviets would refuse to give up ."

Soviet response is an unpredictable variable. One man on foot with a pistol and a packed lunch from his Mum could have conquered the USSR if the Soviets had given up.

What is your point?

Only German planning and strength were within the control of either Hitler, or the German Army. What we are trying to establish here is whether either of these were sufficient for the task of conquering the USSR and, if not, whether Hitler, the German General Staff, or both, were responsible for any limitations.

Cheers,

Sid
That is not a good POV :the reality is that German planning and strength were not related to the task of conquering the USSR ,because the possibility to defeat the USSR depended only on what the Soviets could do, would do . Not on what the Germans could do, would do .
Discussing if German planning/strength were sufficient or not is falling in the post war /Cold War trap where all western authors were trying to resuscite a situation where the German army could, would, should defeat the enemy of the west , and always finishing that they could have done it, but were prevented by an Austrian corporal .I thought that this period of adulation for the Prussian monocled generals was over, but it seems that I am wrong .
The truth is that the Germans did not lose, but that the Soviets won . And the Soviets won, not because the Germans were too weak or made mistakes, the Soviets also made mistakes, but because the Soviets were too strong .Only a miracle, a Deus ex Machina, could give the Germans victory . And they knew it : Adolf knew it and the monocled brigade knew it .And they put ev erything on it .
They lost after a few weeks, they could have lost after a few days .The initiative was at the Soviet side .

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 09 May 2019 13:03

ljadw wrote:
09 May 2019 07:46
jesk wrote:
28 Apr 2019 21:06
doogal wrote:
28 Apr 2019 15:38
rom Nigel Askey Operation Barbarossa Volume II B P 82
Norway : 123000
AG D West
7th A : 141000
1st A : 106000
15th A : 205000
Reserves : 55000

12th A (Balkans ) : 169000

DAK : 82000

Replacement Army : 1076000

Total : 1960000,of whom less than 900000 for occupation duties . The 2 million figure for occupation forces is wrong .
The figure of 1960000 includes army, WSS, LW ground and Naval Coastal artillery units .
I think it is clear that even a significant reduction of occupation forces and there use in the east would not in any real sense have had a positive effect. In reality it may have hastened Nazi Germanys defeat.
Norway 123000? Why are you fooling yourself? Up to half a million at the peak reached the number of German groups there. I think 4 divisions psychologically comfortable figure for the defense of Norway. But the divisions were 14. Hitler wanted to lose war. And he did it. LOOOL

Order of battle (21 Aug 1943)

At the disposal of Armee Norwegen
- 25. Panzer-Division
- 196. Infanterie-Division
- 274. Infanterie-Division (forming)
- 280. Infanterie-Division
LXXI. Armeekorps
- 230. Infanterie-Division
- 270. Infanterie-Division
- 199. Infanterie-Division
XXXIII. Armeekorps
- 14. Luftwaffen-Feld-Division
- 702. Infanterie-Division
- 181. Infanterie-Division
LXX. Armeekorps
- 269. Infanterie-Division
- 295. Infanterie-Division (forming/in transit)
- 214. Infanterie-Division
- 710. Infanterie-Division
I am talking about June 1941 . August 1943 is irrelevant . And you know it .
I always consider Barbarossa on a long distance. The Germans could attack Moscow in 1942 and 1943. Hitler did not want to.

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 09 May 2019 13:04

ljadw wrote:
09 May 2019 07:44
MarkN wrote:
01 May 2019 18:28
This quote from Roberts is interesting (my underlining).
However, Kleist was underestimating Rundstedt's important role in the initial decision-making, but with Hitler willing to take the ultimate glory for the campaign, he must also take the ultimate blame for not allowing Kleist to take on the BEF outside Dunkirk. When Kleist met Hitler on the airfield at Cambrai a few days later, he had the courage to remark that a great opportunity had been lost at Dunkirk. Hitler replied: "That may be so. But I did not want to send the tanks into the Flanders marshes – and the British won't come back in this war."
And yet, a month or so later he was claiming the invasion of Russia was merely a strategic ploy to knock Britain out of the war!!!!

Treat everything the overpromoted Austrian corporal said with the same degree of credibility as that of ljadw and jesk.... :lol:
The quote of Roberts is not proved and can be considered as an invention .The only proof is Kleist himself .
Besides : there were no marshes in the region, and Hitler knew it, thus ...
And? Why did Hitler talk about the terrain unfit for tanks?

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 09 May 2019 13:08

ljadw wrote:
09 May 2019 08:10
The truth is that the Germans did not lose, but that the Soviets won . And the Soviets won, not because the Germans were too weak or made mistakes, the Soviets also made mistakes, but because the Soviets were too strong .Only a miracle, a Deus ex Machina, could give the Germans victory . And they knew it : Adolf knew it and the monocled brigade knew it .And they put ev erything on it .
They lost after a few weeks, they could have lost after a few days .The initiative was at the Soviet side .
701246 in July, 698580 in August, 989203 in September, 1037778 prisoners in October, strong Soviets? Then why did they fight so badly?

Image

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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by MarkN » 09 May 2019 13:13

ljadw wrote:
09 May 2019 07:44
MarkN wrote:
01 May 2019 18:28
This quote from Roberts is interesting (my underlining).
However, Kleist was underestimating Rundstedt's important role in the initial decision-making, but with Hitler willing to take the ultimate glory for the campaign, he must also take the ultimate blame for not allowing Kleist to take on the BEF outside Dunkirk. When Kleist met Hitler on the airfield at Cambrai a few days later, he had the courage to remark that a great opportunity had been lost at Dunkirk. Hitler replied: "That may be so. But I did not want to send the tanks into the Flanders marshes – and the British won't come back in this war."
And yet, a month or so later he was claiming the invasion of Russia was merely a strategic ploy to knock Britain out of the war!!!!

Treat everything the overpromoted Austrian corporal said with the same degree of credibility as that of ljadw and jesk....
The quote of Roberts is not proved and can be considered as an invention .The only proof is Kleist himself .
Besides : there were no marshes in the region, and Hitler knew it, thus ...
What Kleist and Hitler said on the airfield at Cambrai is as credible as what Guderian claimed he and Kleist told each other when they met at the airfield of Montcornet
Standard response to any evidence that does not fit the ljadw fantasy narrative.... It's a lie!!!
:roll:

MarkN
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by MarkN » 09 May 2019 13:21

AbollonPolweder wrote:
07 May 2019 15:56
So far I do not understand for what purpose Hitler as a parrot insists on the USSR as the last hope of England. In top secret documents, not in Felkischer Beobachter.
How do you understand the thoughts and words of any insane person?

Invading Russia believing it will encourage Britain to capitulate is utterly bonkers. The strategy of the insane. And yet evidence exists Hitler repeatedly made such statements.

So, should one take those statements as evidence of insanity or as evidence of a credible and coherent political and military strategy?

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 09 May 2019 15:28

Even at the beginning of 1943, 37% of the pre-war population of the USSR was under occupation. At least 10 million, Germans killed and captured. The number of Soviets under Stalin's control is about 115 million people.
This is one of the myths. Blitzkrieg failed and Germany could no longer compete with Russians in economic power.

https://b-ok.cc/s/?q=букейханов
Курская битва, которую мы начали
p.175

On the basis of available statistical data using the demographic method, it was established that at the end of the first half of 1941 the population of the USSR was approximately 196.7 million people (for comparison, on the eve of World War II, the population of Germany together with Austria, Bohemia and Moravia was about 80 - 85 million people [177]).
By the beginning of 1943, German troops were holding approximately 2 million square meters. km of Soviet territory, which before the war, lived about 88 million people. During the evacuation and conscription to the Red Army, approximately 15 million people left this part of the USSR, and at least 73 million or 37% of the entire pre-war population remained in occupation.

jesk
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by jesk » 09 May 2019 19:46

The Germans easily destroyed 40% of the USSR. In the war with the remaining 60%, problems suddenly arose.
And it is strange. I read the memories of a resident of Berlin, she told what rumors were circulating in the city at the end of the war. One of them, Hitler, an agent of Stalin, sent from the Kremlin. The reasons for such conclusions, Hitler gave away first victories very easily. And this is the correct logic and amazing. People walked near the Reich Chancellery who believed that Hitler was sabotaging and wanted to lose the war. But none of the generals close to Hitler, could not make such bold conclusions.

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