ljadw wrote: ↑10 May 2019, 17:56
jesk wrote: ↑10 May 2019, 10:45
ljadw wrote: ↑10 May 2019, 09:26
jesk wrote: ↑09 May 2019, 14:08
ljadw wrote: ↑09 May 2019, 09:10
The truth is that the Germans did not lose, but that the Soviets won . And the Soviets won, not because the Germans were too weak or made mistakes, the Soviets also made mistakes, but because the Soviets were too strong .Only a miracle, a Deus ex Machina, could give the Germans victory . And they knew it : Adolf knew it and the monocled brigade knew it .And they put ev erything on it .
They lost after a few weeks, they could have lost after a few days .The initiative was at the Soviet side .
701246 in July, 698580 in August, 989203 in September, 1037778 prisoners in October, strong Soviets? Then why did they fight so badly?
German losses in July : 170000,in August :200000 :Did the Soviets fight badly ?
Besides : the German POW claims were much inflated .At the end of 1941, the Germans decreased the number of Soviet POWs by more than a half million .
The Russians in 1941 lost up to 4 million pows and the territory where 80 million people lived before the war. German casualties killed and wounded; The Soviets completely lost their armies. Were forced to form new ones. At the end of the year, slush and winter. There was no winter clothing, tanks and cars would not start in the cold.
My logic suggested that the Russian army was unable to stop the Germans.
Wrong : Soviet POWs were 3367206which is not up to 4 million .
At the end of 1941 the Red Army was stronger than in June 1941: between June 22 and June 30 the Soviets mobilized 5 million + men .
Soviet troops in the autumn and winter of 1941 are technically poorly equipped. If the offensive on December 5, 1941 involved 7600 guns and mortars; April 16, 1945 - 41600. Tanks near Moscow 990, in Berlin 6250. Situation after defeat in the summer, almost like the British after Dunkirk. People there, weapons are few.
The number of prisoners is underestimated. The real figure is 3.9 million.
http://www.infran.ru/vovenko/60years_ww ... r8_1.htm#2
In order to determine the total amount of irretrievable losses of the Red Army in a war, we need to establish the total number of Soviet prisoners of war and estimate how many of them did not survive until liberation. According to the final German documents on the Eastern Front, 5754 thousand prisoners of war were taken, distributed among years as follows: 1941 - 3355 thousand, 1942 - 1653 thousand, 1943 - 565 thousand, 1944 - 147 ths., 1945 - 34 ths. The American historian A. Dallin, {26} promulgating this document to the command of the Wehrmacht, considered the data on the number of prisoners incomplete. Indeed, according to earlier RCC data, from June 22 to December 1, 1941, 3,806,861 prisoners of war were captured on the Eastern Front, and according to a statement made by government official Mansfeld on February 19, 1942, there were 3 Soviet prisoners of war in the Economic Chamber of the Reich. , 9 million (almost all of them were captured in 1941). We are inclined to join the highest estimate of the number of Soviet prisoners of war in 1941 at 3.9 million people, {27} because, most likely, the minimum estimate of 3355 thousand prisoners underestimated those 200 thousand who were already enrolled in 1941 for auxiliary services in the ranks of the German armed forces, {28} as well as those who died in the first weeks of captivity without proper registration from starvation, disease, and as a result of German repression. The number of these latter can be estimated (together with those who fled from captivity in 1941) to about 345 thousand people. In 1941, the mortality rate among the prisoners was especially high, and the undercount due to the huge number of them was maximum. The data on the number of prisoners in 1942-1945, when their number and mortality decreased, and the accounting improved, we take close to reality. Then the total number of Soviet prisoners of war for the war can be estimated at 6.3 million.