How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

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Futurist
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How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#1

Post by Futurist » 22 May 2019, 00:07

How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

This scenario could come about if there is no Fall of France and thus the number of Jews under Nazi rule is halved in comparison to real life (since there's no Operation Barbarossa and also no Nazi occupation of Greater Hungary in this scenario). Once it becomes clear that Germany can't achieve a decisive breakthrough in the West, the Nazis proceed to murder as much Jews under their rule as they can before they are overthrown either in an internal coup or by the Anglo-French as they advance onto Berlin.

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#2

Post by maltesefalcon » 22 May 2019, 03:17

Do you seriously think that there is a degree of Genocide that would change world opinion if "only" 2 million died?


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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#3

Post by Futurist » 23 May 2019, 01:14

maltesefalcon wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:17
Do you seriously think that there is a degree of Genocide that would change world opinion if "only" 2 million died?
Personally, I suspect not.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#4

Post by maltesefalcon » 23 May 2019, 01:32

Futurist wrote:
23 May 2019, 01:14
maltesefalcon wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:17
Do you seriously think that there is a degree of Genocide that would change world opinion if "only" 2 million died?
Personally, I suspect not.
Why would anyone would posit a What If that even they don't believe in? The mind boggles....

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#5

Post by wm » 23 May 2019, 22:05

The Holocaust was practically impossible in 1940.
It required a months-long "warming" period, a string of progressively larger" mini-Holocaust" committed during Operation Barbarossa that convinced Nazi leaders that the Holocaust was possible and useful.
In 1940 Himmler was still against the Holocaust.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#6

Post by Futurist » 24 May 2019, 06:35

maltesefalcon wrote:
23 May 2019, 01:32
Futurist wrote:
23 May 2019, 01:14
maltesefalcon wrote:
22 May 2019, 03:17
Do you seriously think that there is a degree of Genocide that would change world opinion if "only" 2 million died?
Personally, I suspect not.
Why would anyone would posit a What If that even they don't believe in? The mind boggles....
One user here believes that a smaller Holocaust would have made a difference in regards to international support for the creation of Israel:

https://historum.com/threads/israel-wit ... on.178499/

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#7

Post by Futurist » 24 May 2019, 06:36

wm wrote:
23 May 2019, 22:05
The Holocaust was practically impossible in 1940.
It required a months-long "warming" period, a string of progressively larger" mini-Holocaust" committed during Operation Barbarossa that convinced Nazi leaders that the Holocaust was possible and useful.
In 1940 Himmler was still against the Holocaust.
Weren't the Nazis against the Holocaust in 1940 at least in part because they believed that they were going to win the war, though? In this scenario, Nazi hopes of winning the war are going to be significantly reduced once it becomes clear that France isn't actually going to fall.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#8

Post by Gorque » 24 May 2019, 14:46

Futurist wrote:
22 May 2019, 00:07
How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

This scenario could come about if there is no Fall of France and thus the number of Jews under Nazi rule is halved in comparison to real life (since there's no Operation Barbarossa and also no Nazi occupation of Greater Hungary in this scenario). Once it becomes clear that Germany can't achieve a decisive breakthrough in the West, the Nazis proceed to murder as much Jews under their rule as they can before they are overthrown either in an internal coup or by the Anglo-French as they advance onto Berlin.

Any thoughts on this?

Prior to armed hostilities, the German government was encouraging the emigration of Jews. The de jure and de facto annexations of western Polish lands as well as the administration of the General Government was a major step backwards in achieving a Germany that had no Jews in it.

However, emigration was still possible at the time as the Eastern frontier was still open as it was likewise towards the South-West; Romania, Yugoslavia, Greece, during the aforementioned time-frame. I won't speculate as to whether it was possible at that point in time for them to expel over two million people, especially considering the woeful global economics then present, as well as the proven lack of desire of other nations (Evian Conference) to host the expellees.
Last edited by Gorque on 24 May 2019, 14:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#9

Post by Gorque » 24 May 2019, 14:58

A second item to consider has to do with the neutrality of the United States. At that point in time, the German government was attempting to keep the United States out of the conflict and any extra-judicial murders of Jews under German governance would have had the reverse effect from what they were hoping to accomplish.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#10

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 May 2019, 15:08

If the Nazi attempt to murder all European Jews had fallen so far short of its aims, it might have had a significant impact on the world's willingness to accept the creation of the post-war state of Israel.

The enormity and near success of the so-called "Holocaust" gave the surviving Jewish diaspora a level of moral leverage in the immediate wake of WWII that has been in decline ever since. The difference between an 80% mortality rate and a 20% mortality rate is significant. Thus the 6 million figure, as opposed to a 1,5 million figure, may have been significant in terms of post war outcomes.

However, the fact is that we cannot know. We just have to deal with the enormity of what actually did happen.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#11

Post by Futurist » 25 May 2019, 00:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:
24 May 2019, 15:08
If the Nazi attempt to murder all European Jews had fallen so far short of its aims, it might have had a significant impact on the world's willingness to accept the creation of the post-war state of Israel.

The enormity and near success of the so-called "Holocaust" gave the surviving Jewish diaspora a level of moral leverage in the immediate wake of WWII that has been in decline ever since. The difference between an 80% mortality rate and a 20% mortality rate is significant. Thus the 6 million figure, as opposed to a 1,5 million figure, may have been significant in terms of post war outcomes.

However, the fact is that we cannot know. We just have to deal with the enormity of what actually did happen.

Cheers,

Sid.
To be fair, though, the death toll among Polish (and Czech, and probably Slovak as well) Jews would have probably been much higher than 20% in this scenario. It's the Soviet Jews, the Hungarian Jews, the Romanian Jews, the Yugoslav Jews, the Greek Jews, et cetera that would have been spared.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#12

Post by Futurist » 25 May 2019, 00:28

Gorque wrote:
24 May 2019, 14:46
Futurist wrote:
22 May 2019, 00:07
How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

This scenario could come about if there is no Fall of France and thus the number of Jews under Nazi rule is halved in comparison to real life (since there's no Operation Barbarossa and also no Nazi occupation of Greater Hungary in this scenario). Once it becomes clear that Germany can't achieve a decisive breakthrough in the West, the Nazis proceed to murder as much Jews under their rule as they can before they are overthrown either in an internal coup or by the Anglo-French as they advance onto Berlin.

Any thoughts on this?

Prior to armed hostilities, the German government was encouraging the emigration of Jews. The de jure and de facto annexations of western Polish lands as well as the administration of the General Government was a major step backwards in achieving a Germany that had no Jews in it.

However, emigration was still possible at the time as the Eastern frontier was still open as it was likewise towards the South-West; Romania, Yugoslavia, Greece, during the aforementioned time-frame. I won't speculate as to whether it was possible at that point in time for them to expel over two million people, especially considering the woeful global economics then present, as well as the proven lack of desire of other nations (Evian Conference) to host the expellees.
The problem is, though, that even if there was some place in Europe to expel the Jews, if the Nazis will lose the war, the expelled Jews could simply return to their homelands after the end of the war.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#13

Post by Futurist » 25 May 2019, 00:30

Gorque wrote:
24 May 2019, 14:58
A second item to consider has to do with the neutrality of the United States. At that point in time, the German government was attempting to keep the United States out of the conflict and any extra-judicial murders of Jews under German governance would have had the reverse effect from what they were hoping to accomplish.
That's a good point--though please keep in mind that if it looks like Germany might lose the war in any case, then from a demented Nazi point-of-view, it might be "best" to deal as damaging of a blow to "International Jewry" as possible even if this will increase the odds of the US entering the war.

Also, as a side note, the mass Nazi murders of Soviet Jews in late 1941 didn't cause the US to enter the war; if it wasn't for Pearl Harbor, the US would have remained neutral even longer even though around one million Soviet Jews had already been murdered by the end of 1941. :(

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#14

Post by wm » 25 May 2019, 10:09

Futurist wrote:
24 May 2019, 06:36
Weren't the Nazis against the Holocaust in 1940 at least in part because they believed that they were going to win the war, though? In this scenario, Nazi hopes of winning the war are going to be significantly reduced once it becomes clear that France isn't actually going to fall.
I don't believe Nazis leaders were capable to make such a decision in 1940. They weren't some cartoonish "bad guys" they were people like you and me. They needed time to grow into their genocidal role.
And it wasn't even doable. At that time even the Wehrmacht strongly protested against the (limited) persecutions of Poles. And they didn't have the experience and knowledge to do that.

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Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

#15

Post by Pavel Novak » 25 May 2019, 16:46

If I remember correctly what I have read in Main Kampf there was already written that Jews has to be eliminated and that no such solution like transfer to other countries or creation of Jew state is acceptable. Nazis were correcting and updating their views through time but annihilation of Jews was the first option not the last.

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