Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

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Mori
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Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Mori » 06 Jun 2019 20:51

Hello to all,

I'm looking for a statistical study of German PoWs made during the Normandy campaign. I have read that such a study was made of 12,000 of the 29,000 PoWs from June 1944. The study was based on their Soldbuch, not on interviews.

I don't know more, except that a comparable study may have been performed in Tunisia after May 1943.

Has anyone heard of it? What would be the specific source?

Thanks,

Mori

Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019 02:14

Mori wrote:
06 Jun 2019 20:51
Hello to all,

I'm looking for a statistical study of German PoWs made during the Normandy campaign. I have read that such a study was made of 12,000 of the 29,000 PoWs from June 1944. The study was based on their Soldbuch, not on interviews.

I don't know more, except that a comparable study may have been performed in Tunisia after May 1943.

Has anyone heard of it? What would be the specific source?

Thanks,

Mori
Not that I have ever seen, I have gone through quite a few of the ETOUSA/USFET/12th AG files that would have had such a report. I do know that U.S. Fifth Army in Italy recorded daily PW intakes by number and unit from September 1943-June 1944...then stopped. I don't know if a later set of that report to the end of the war was made and filed somewhere else, but its possible.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019 08:06

This source is mentioned in print in an article on the types of sources historian used. The article's author is a scholar who is both of a serious type and extremely reluctant to share his sources.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jun 2019 10:27

Hi Mori,

Your last post tells us nothing.

Do you have the actual source so that others can consult it?

Cheers,

Sid.

Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019 11:07

Yes. This book, page 197. Hopefully you are fine with the French.
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Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019 15:05

Mori wrote:
07 Jun 2019 11:07
Yes. This book, page 197. Hopefully you are fine with the French.
Sadly, I'm not sure that qualifies as even a peek-a-boo reference... :D We did spend quite a bit of time going through relevant PW files for the Enemy PW Capture Rate Study. The only high-level "study" I found were the monthly PW count totals by capturing nationality in RG 338 IIRC.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Mori
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Mori » 07 Jun 2019 20:45

The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up.

reedwh52
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by reedwh52 » 07 Jun 2019 21:44

"The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up."

Quite the contrary-Absent supporting evidence of some kind, all the description says is the writer can develop a lucid sentence.

If there is evidence, than it should be identifiable and be able to stand up to critical scrutiny. Otherwise, it is supposition.

I personally would be happy fo find that such a study existed and it's purpose. Absent further source data, there has been no evidence that it did.

Note that there is one possibility that would not be a POW study-There could have been data gathered from POWs to determine units & organizations (ORBAT data) but that does not appear to be what is so nebulously described

Richard Anderson
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Richard Anderson » 07 Jun 2019 21:46

Mori wrote:
07 Jun 2019 20:45
The guy it comes from is 100% serious (and 100% reluctant to disclose the source until he publishes something with it, if he ever does). The description is specific enough to tell it isn't made up.
Oh, I don't believe it is made up, but I've never understood the wholw "secret sources" thing.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Simon Trew 1
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Simon Trew 1 » 25 Jun 2019 11:43

Hello,

The only document I know of that resembles this particular description is PWIS(H)/194 of 17 July 1944. It is entitled 'German Military Man-Power June 1944' and is a demographic study of 12000 of 29700 PWs captured during the first 24 days of the Normandy campaign. It is not especially long or detailed, but it is interesting. PWIS(H)/169 of 16 October 1943 is a study of German manpower captured in North Africa. It can be found attached to the 1944 report for purposes of comparison.

If you want a copy, please contact me. Or you can get somebody at the UK National Archives to source it. It is in WO 208/3622.

Hope this helps,

Simon

Lcr5002
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Re: Statistical Study of German PoWs in Normandy

Post by Lcr5002 » 13 Jun 2020 15:09

Simon

I would be interested in seeing the study on German prisoners done on July 17 for the preceding month.

Louis

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