What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Takao
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Takao » 14 Jun 2019 15:11

ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 07:42
YOU never have made typos ?
We'll just start calling you Robdab then...

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 14 Jun 2019 16:21

The mass production of the T 34 started on March 1940, the production started before March 1940.

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Hanny » 14 Jun 2019 16:31

ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 16:21
The mass production of the T 34 started on March 1940, the production started before March 1940.
You seem to forget March 1940 means they dont exist for war with Japan, the two prototypes also cant be there as no one has built them yet either, and your still wrong.

The first T34 was produced Jan 1940 the second in February and went for trials in Kharkov etc in March. June 1940 SNK , after acepting it for production, orders factory 183 to begin to prepare mass production of the T34m, but this version never was mass produced as the spec was too high, order for 600 for the year, and 183 produced by end of year.
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 14 Jun 2019 18:10

Takao wrote:
14 Jun 2019 15:11
ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 07:42
YOU never have made typos ?
We'll just start calling you Robdab then...
Typical

Richard Anderson
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Jun 2019 03:27

ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 18:10
Takao wrote:
14 Jun 2019 15:11
ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 07:42
YOU never have made typos ?
We'll just start calling you Robdab then...
Typical
Shouldn't that be typocal?
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Jun 2019 03:39

Hanny wrote:
14 Jun 2019 16:31
The first T34 was produced Jan 1940 the second in February and went for trials in Kharkov etc in March. June 1940 SNK , after acepting it for production, orders factory 183 to begin to prepare mass production of the T34m, but this version never was mass produced as the spec was too high, order for 600 for the year, and 183 produced by end of year.
Actually, I believe the total was 115 in 1940, possibly including the two pre-production types (what U.S. Army Ordnance termed "production pilots" as opposed to "pilots', which were prototypes). At least according to Solyankin, et al. That seems reasonable given that the first half 1941 production averaged only 152.3 per month, but its been a while since I looked at the question.

As for T34 at Khalkin Gol or Finland? No. A32? Extremely unlikely. Would the German attache be aware of either? No.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Hanny » 15 Jun 2019 09:48

Richard Anderson wrote:
15 Jun 2019 03:39
Hanny wrote:
14 Jun 2019 16:31
The first T34 was produced Jan 1940 the second in February and went for trials in Kharkov etc in March. June 1940 SNK , after acepting it for production, orders factory 183 to begin to prepare mass production of the T34m, but this version never was mass produced as the spec was too high, order for 600 for the year, and 183 produced by end of year.
Actually, I believe the total was 115 in 1940, possibly including the two pre-production types (what U.S. Army Ordnance termed "production pilots" as opposed to "pilots', which were prototypes). At least according to Solyankin, et al. That seems reasonable given that the first half 1941 production averaged only 152.3 per month, but its been a while since I looked at the question.

As for T34 at Khalkin Gol or Finland? No. A32? Extremely unlikely. Would the German attache be aware of either? No.
I was pocking fun at his concept of what mass production of T34 starting in March 1940 looked like. June, prototypes T34m First month 1 tank, second month 7, third month 24 finished.

Kharhov factory received blueprints for the prototype to begin work on in May, but did not have all the machine tools to produce a whole tank, but could produce hulls,and the main gun was slow in delivery as KV had priority of that gun, main gun changed to 76L-11 and first ones completed in October, 55 hulls without gun awaiting completion. 600 had been ordered but then stopped production as they got hold of Pzr III to evaluate and made changes the spec to the T34m, Machine tools arrived for full production arrived in August, in July the new blueprints of the T34A arrived and production switches to the T34A.

So yes Zaloga is right, 115 T34 finished ready for delivery, but the factory had also produced a lot of unfinished articles, some that never passed final inspection,(ince prototype version, and hulls without main gun, and others awaiting a part from sub contaracters) and had produced 183 in total.

Enjoy your hols. :D
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 15 Jun 2019 16:58

All this is irrelevant and avoids desperatedly the point of discussion

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 15 Jun 2019 17:03

Hanny wrote:
14 Jun 2019 16:31
ljadw wrote:
14 Jun 2019 16:21
The mass production of the T 34 started on March 1940, the production started before March 1940.
You seem to forget March 1940 means they dont exist for war with Japan, the two prototypes also cant be there as no one has built them yet either, and your still wrong.

The first T34 was produced Jan 1940 the second in February and went for trials in Kharkov etc in March. June 1940 SNK , after acepting it for production, orders factory 183 to begin to prepare mass production of the T34m, but this version never was mass produced as the spec was too high, order for 600 for the year, and 183 produced by end of year.
You still have not proved
a that there were only two prototypes
b that, if there were only two,these were not committed/tested in the Winterwar .
The use of prototypes of new tanks in a war is very likely, as it is only in a war that hidden shortcomings would become public .
The best, only good ,trial is the use in war time ,

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by David Thompson » 15 Jun 2019 18:22

A post from Hanny containing personal insults was removed pursuant to forum rules. Prior examples of the same offense on previous occasions can be seen at:

viewtopic.php?p=2188537#p2188537
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Hanny » 16 Jun 2019 10:54

ljadw wrote:
15 Jun 2019 17:03
You still have not proved
a that there were only two prototypes
Its in every book on the T34 try T34/76 try Zaloga or any book on Russian armour, or any website on Russian armour. We ( apart from you) know when and where they are built, by Feb of 40, where they are in Jan Feb in factory at Kharkov, on trails during March of 40, and thus not be present in Finland.

ljadw wrote:
15 Jun 2019 17:03
b that, if there were only two,these were not committed/tested in the Winterwar .
Your the one trying to re write history its up to you to show every authors work on when they are built by Feb 40, March/April spent in trials and field testing, is wrong and you know more than they.
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Hanny » 16 Jun 2019 10:56

ljadw back on ignore for you sonny.
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 16 Jun 2019 19:22

I have given as source 2 historians ,
one who said that prototypyes of what later was called the T 34 were used against Japan .
an other who said that such prototypes were also used in the war against Finland .
Trying to move the discussion to something different = the number of T34 built in 1940,proves one has no valid arguments .
A third source is the Soviet Tank encyclopedia which states that the first prototypes of the A 32 tank ( which was the T 34 tank with another name ) were already built at the end of 1938 . .
The Soviet Tank Encyclopedia said that the first prototype of the T34 was an improved A 32 .
From the same source :the blue print of the T 34 was set up long before the war .

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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by ljadw » 16 Jun 2019 19:23

Hanny wrote:
16 Jun 2019 10:54
ljadw wrote:
15 Jun 2019 17:03
You still have not proved
a that there were only two prototypes
Its in every book on the T34 try T34/76 try Zaloga or any book on Russian armour, or any website on Russian armour. We ( apart from you) know when and where they are built, by Feb of 40, where they are in Jan Feb in factory at Kharkov, on trails during March of 40, and thus not be present in Finland.

ljadw wrote:
15 Jun 2019 17:03
b that, if there were only two,these were not committed/tested in the Winterwar .
Your the one trying to re write history its up to you to show every authors work on when they are built by Feb 40, March/April spent in trials and field testing, is wrong and you know more than they.
There were prototypes BEFORE 1940 .

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Takao
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Re: What if: Hitler wins the war due to slightly stronger Barbarossa forces

Post by Takao » 16 Jun 2019 22:38

ljadw wrote:
16 Jun 2019 19:23
There were prototypes BEFORE 1940 .
There were lots of prototypes, however, only the A-34 was the prototype of the T-34, and the two A-34s were produced during January-February, 1940. Months after the skirmish with the Japanese had ended.

There was the A-20 prototype, but that was just a buffed up BT-7. There was the A-30, essentially a heavier upgunned A-20. Rounding out the prototypes was the A-32, which combined the better aspects of the A-20 & A-30. Both the A-20 & A-32 prototypes were completed by July, 1939, and sent to Kublinka for testing, and from there, they were on display as of 1 September, 1939, for Soviet high officials to look over.

No mention that I have ever seen places these prototypes in combat against the Japanese...What is your source for this information?

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