The Reichstag Fire

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phylo_roadking
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 May 2011 16:49

Hi Phil....

Unfortunately the issue of the Reichstag Fire is somewhat bound up with the various politcal positions various parties took on the issue during and immediately after the Fire :( In turn, the discussions on who was/might have been responsible include...

1/ a (possibly) half mad dutch Communist;
2/ The Communist deputies in the Reichstag;
3/ The "visiting" Bulgarian Communists arrested nearby - and later exchanged diplomatically;
4/ The Nazis...

Therefore it's hard to disassociate politics, the contemporary political climate, and each political group's possible motivations from the issue at hand...tho' we can do the best possible by actually using various witness statements and accounts as has been done so far.

However, I agree that posts like the one IMMEDIATELY above offering two completely unattributable anecdotes do not help; until they should actually BE sourced, they remain...opinions, and very likely umpteenth-hand ones at that...
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bolchevik
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by bolchevik » 06 May 2011 17:21

phylo_roadking wrote: 3/ The "visiting" Bulgarian Communists arrested nearby - and later exchanged diplomatically;
You have forgotten they have been cleared before court.
Source of my previous message : Strasser & Alexandrov.

J. Duncan
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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 20:06

Quote (Bolchevik) below:

VDL one day joined a swimming competition which consisted to cross the Channel. He came alone... the officials had to explain to him he could not compete because competitors have to be accompanied by a boat.... as he came alone without warning anyone, he could not compete... that's just one exampla...
You can find other exampla : when the day before the Reichstag's Fire he tried to set fire at different buildings in Berlin while it was snowing just by launching some lighters... etc etc. He also agreed with the fact to set fire at the Reichstag just on the advise of a man he has met some two weeks ago... this guy he thought was a friend was indeed a nazi accomplice.
ps : i dont think the psychiatric expertise during the trial was honest.

There is relevance to why these stories above were posted.
I think Bolchevik was trying to show that Lubbe was "retarded" and could not have been capable of handling the fire alone. "He's a retard, so there's no way he could have done it alone" - such is the argument. This is in contradiction to Fritz Tobias, who concludes from all the evidence he examined that Lubbe did it alone. So, if Lubbe was a "retard", as says Bolchevik, he obviously needed "help"...help he got from the Nazis. Examples above are provided to "prove" this argument.
Last sentence of Bolchevik's quoted above is purely opinion. As for the stories above, which he says he got from Strasser (BTW -which Strasser book?) the first could have been a misunderstanding (perhaps he didn't read the flyer for the competition and came uprepared? Just about anyone has done something of that sort at one time or another in their life). The second? Maybe he was drunk and just messing around..he's observed by police / gets arrested....as a vagrant, he had plenty of time for that. Of course, these are conjectures to his statements, but seriously and really, how can his two examples provide PROOF that Lubbe was clinically retarded? Rather weak I'm afraid (if this is what Bolchevik - via Strasser- is trying to illustrate).

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by bolchevik » 06 May 2011 20:27

1-If you dont understand that it is anormal for anyone to go at swimming meeting in order to cross the Channel without being prepared to... without being inscribed in... i mean... what can i do for you ?
2-VDL was taken in flagrante delicto... he has no issue to avoid the sentence under nazi rule... in 2005 german court definitively innocented VDL of Reichstag's Fire. Implicitly it recognizes Reichstag's Fire as a nazi manipulation.
3-experts did testify that for such a fire it would be needed 500 L of oil... and ten men at least... this is the number of SA that some witnesses (a couple who has been killed during long knives night) had seen getting out of the Reichstag this night... the expert (chief of fire-dpt of Berlin) that testify the fire needed 500 L of oil mysteriously have been killed by SS during long knives night !
4-an other "disturbing guy" (Karl Ernst) would be killed during long knives night : Karl Ernst who recognized have been preparing inflamable materials in the underground of Reichstag with 2 other SA.
5-Göring recognized at a dinner to have been the main responsible of the fire (cf Halder).
6-the special decree which has followed the Fire was pretty ready in time ! What a strange quickness... the only explanation is that nazis has prepared the decree longtime before the fire itself.

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 21:16

The court's decision to pardon Lubbe in 2008 was a political maneuver which is historically irrevelant. They didn't exactly state he wasn't complicit...the "pardon" was for his being found guilty under a Nazi court. He could not be found "guilty" of crimes under a Nazi justice system. These laws were enacted 70 plus years later to separate current German courts of law from the Nazi justice system. Almost all the articles on this "pardon" state that "historians are still divided on the issue" as to whether Lubbe acted alone or if the Nazis set the fire. The judgement of a current court after all witnesses have died has no basis in historical FACT. Facts are facts, despite the political sway of the current time period. Some ignorant people have even misinterpreted this "pardon" to mean that Lubbe had nothing to do with the fire at all. That he's somehow completely innocent of any wrongdoing. Or, that since he was "pardoned", it automatically means that the Nazis are guilty. Absurd but that's what courts impress upon people - post-facto. People are lazy and rarely take the time to examine exactly what the court judgenments state. They never go beyond the articles interpreted by sensationalistic journalists.

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 21:29

Typical article on the pardon (link below). Notice the paragraph on what historians say. To the german court system, "Nazi means guilty", the same argument which you, Bolchevik, have been using. What are the facts? The only credible fact remains that "historians remain divided".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/ja ... ar.germany

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Re: The Reichstag Fire

Post by D.Laurent » 06 May 2011 21:45

some food for thought from Jacque Delarue in "Histoire de la gestapo":
    • - van der Lubbe was not communist anymore at this time (1931): p78
    • - the Rall (murdered after being extrated from Neuruppin prison), Ernst (killed in 1934) and Reineking (send to CC after the 1934 purge) events
    • - the SA and SS made auxilliary 5 days before the event. p80
    • - the purge of 1934 where many of "supposed" actors were wiped out
    • - the ring palace underground.p83
    • - supposed 60 to 75 fire setup. p80
    • - the use of van der Lubbe (he certainly set fire but the nazi "help" him a bit) as a scapegoat.
    • - Karl Liebnecht House(communist party house)strangely full of docments whereas it was closed and searched 1 month before. p81
    • - murder of Dr. Bell p82
    • - murder of Dr. Oberfohren p82
    • - Kruse (hm driver) letter to Hindenburg
    PS: i will later do a post with more reference from the book with the pages
    Last edited by D.Laurent on 07 May 2011 18:42, edited 3 times in total.

    bolchevik
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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by bolchevik » 06 May 2011 21:55

    J. Duncan wrote:The court's decision to pardon Lubbe in 2008 was a political maneuver which is historically irrevelant. They didn't exactly state he wasn't complicit...the "pardon" was for his being found guilty under a Nazi court. He could not be found "guilty" of crimes under a Nazi justice system. These laws were enacted 70 plus years later to separate current German courts of law from the Nazi justice system. Almost all the articles on this "pardon" state that "historians are still divided on the issue" as to whether Lubbe acted alone or if the Nazis set the fire. The judgement of a current court after all witnesses have died has no basis in historical FACT. Facts are facts, despite the political sway of the current time period. Some ignorant people have even misinterpreted this "pardon" to mean that Lubbe had nothing to do with the fire at all. That he's somehow completely innocent of any wrongdoing. Or, that since he was "pardoned", it automatically means that the Nazis are guilty. Absurd but that's what courts impress upon people - post-facto. People are lazy and rarely take the time to examine exactly what the court judgenments state. They never go beyond the articles interpreted by sensationalistic journalists.
    1-You are able to say that in 2008 a court in democratic Germany is politically manipulated... and you deny the fact that under nazi rules a court could not have been manipulated ? Lmao !
    2-in 2005 justice has at last been done.
    3-what a pity some historians are slower than justice ! NB : Tobias was not historian but journalist. And he was not politically at the left... rather at the right... he was living in RFA and doesnt really liked RDA...
    4-Nazis, especially Hitler, were very gifted in manipulations (such as Reichstag's Fire, Münich 1938, Non-agression pact with France, Poland, USSR, GB etc...).

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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 22:09

    All courts are politically manipulated. Why do you think so many politicans are trained in law and vice versa? How do think these "justices" get appointed? Many are appointed by politicians and some are even elected! (USA) Such naivety. Still, you have failed to actually PROVE anything against Tobias and the lone wolf conclusion. You state Lubbe is a "retard" without providing clinical diagnosis as such. You give only a couple of very weak "stories" as told by Otto Strasser. The account about Karl Ernst comes straight out of the Second Brown Book.
    Sorry, but I don't find you convincing enough to even continue until (as Phylo says) you provide a link, an article, a book, an actual SOURCE or better - a PROOF - counter to Tobias.
    Last edited by J. Duncan on 07 May 2011 00:28, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 22:23

    Here's my source. Tobias himself. (linked below). Present your refutation but back it up with facts, ideas, and referenced sources. Have at it.

    http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDF_Books/ ... g_Fire.pdf
    Last edited by J. Duncan on 07 May 2011 00:30, edited 3 times in total.

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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by J. Duncan » 06 May 2011 22:27

    Tidbit from the Tobias book's introduction which gives a good overview of Tobia's conclusion:



    The case against the Nazis rested on two arguments or rather assumptions: the first that van der Lubbe was a physical degenerate
    who was incapable of starting the fires alone; the second that it was impossible, in any case, for the fires to have been started by a
    single man. Herr Tobias has shaken both these assumptions. He shows that van der Lubbe was quick-witted, ingenious, and physically
    active. His defective eyesight was balanced, as often happens, by sensitivity in other ways. He described precisely how he had set fire
    to the Reichstag; and his description tallied with the evidence. The police took him through the Reichstag with a stop-watch. He
    covered the ground at exactly the right times. Herr Tobias also provides a convincing explanation of van der Lubbe's motives and of
    his later behaviour. Van der Lubbe despaired at the lack of fight shown by the Communists and other opponents of Hitler. He wished
    to give a signal of revolt. When his gesture failed, when indeed it helped to consolidate Hitler's dictatorship, he fell into despair. There
    is a cry of human tragedy in his repeated declaration to the High Court: 'I did it alone. I was there. I know.' No one believed him

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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by phylo_roadking » 07 May 2011 15:50

    ... in 2005 german court definitively innocented VDL of Reichstag's Fire. Implicitly it recognizes Reichstag's Fire as a nazi manipulation.
    1/ finding someone innocent of a crime doesn't automatically make another NAMED party guilty of it! That requires another investigation and/or trial to determine guilt. It only at best means someone else was indeed guilty of it.

    2. OF COURSE the Reichstag Fire was manipulated; but that's not the same as it being the Nazis who started it - events can be "spun" almost from the very second they occur...as we've seen Göring doing to Delmer, Diels and Sommerfeldt...and Hitler after some time to von Papen.
    - supposed 60 to 75 fire setup.
    IIRC it was Tom Delmer who reported that Göring picked up a rag of charred CURTAIN from the abck of a chiar when they were touring the building BEFORE Diels joined them....and said to Hitler "Here you can see for yourself, Herr Chancellor, how they started the fire. They hung CLOTHES soaked in petrol over the Furniture and set it alight."

    1/having worked in a forensic science laboratory, it is actually quite hard and requires a lot of very modern technology to tell exactly what accelerant has been used in a burnt piece of any material...and a LOT more discriminatory than Hermann's hairy nostril!

    2/He picked up a piece of CURTAIN and said it wasn an example of how they'd set their CLOTHES alight???

    ****Whoa! Stop the presses! New Front Page! It was the Von Trapp Family that torched the Reichstag!***

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
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    bolchevik
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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by bolchevik » 07 May 2011 18:06

    phylo_roadking wrote:
    ... in 2005 german court definitively innocented VDL of Reichstag's Fire. Implicitly it recognizes Reichstag's Fire as a nazi manipulation.
    1/ finding someone innocent of a crime doesn't automatically make another NAMED party guilty of it! That requires another investigation and/or trial to determine guilt. It only at best means someone else was indeed guilty of it.
    It absolutely means that OTHER guy(s) fired the Reichstag this 28 february 1933.

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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by DavidFrankenberg » 27 Jul 2019 18:07

    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/euro ... -1.7577381

    Nazi SA member recounted that Dutch communist Marinus van der Lubbe actually arrived at the Reichstag only after the blaze started.

    In other words :
    1) Marinus van der Lubbe didnt fire the Reichstag
    2) the nazis did it

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    von thoma
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    Re: The Reichstag Fire

    Post by von thoma » 28 Jul 2019 02:58

    What kind of health troubles had VDL ?
    He always stays crouched.
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