where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

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Hanny
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Hanny » 05 Aug 2019 14:34

Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 13:24

I just had a look in GFM Von Leeb Tagebuchaufzeichnungen und Lagebeurteilungen in Zwei Weltkriegen DVA 1976 which shows again how stupid that Wikipedia article is.The real Von Leeb was an officer highly critical of Hitler who did not agree with many things but accepted to serve his country after being sacked a first time before ww2 because of being too catholic.He eventually resigned because of the many disagreements with Hitler. The real German officers do not conform to your caricature.They we're loyal to their country.Leeb was one of those.
https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_c ... agesOnly=N and https://www.academia.edu/19580631/Hitle ... h_the_Army

Odd i already linked you to Leebs account of being bribed. Since we know, because Leeb tells us so, Leeb considered it a bribe, ie his awards, but also those of Raeder Fritsch and from as also detailed by J Tolland. Im afraid your again back to your pet theory, compared to the evidence.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 15:07

Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 14:34
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 13:24

I just had a look in GFM Von Leeb Tagebuchaufzeichnungen und Lagebeurteilungen in Zwei Weltkriegen DVA 1976 which shows again how stupid that Wikipedia article is.The real Von Leeb was an officer highly critical of Hitler who did not agree with many things but accepted to serve his country after being sacked a first time before ww2 because of being too catholic.He eventually resigned because of the many disagreements with Hitler. The real German officers do not conform to your caricature.They we're loyal to their country.Leeb was one of those.
https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_c ... agesOnly=N and https://www.academia.edu/19580631/Hitle ... h_the_Army

Odd i already linked you to Leebs account of being bribed. Since we know, because Leeb tells us so, Leeb considered it a bribe, ie his awards, but also those of Raeder Fritsch and from as also detailed by J Tolland. Im afraid your again back to your pet theory, compared to the evidence.
You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.Leeb is stated to have ceased his criticism of the way the war was fought after receiving his birthday check.Not really as a few months later he stepped down because of the continuous disagreements with Hitler.It is also incorrect ly stated that Guderian was only interested in serving again after he got an estate.He actually only got interested in an estate when he was convinced that he would not be employed anymore.Same happened for Manstein.He got interested in buying an estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.

Hanny
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Hanny » 05 Aug 2019 15:13

Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Peter89
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Peter89 » 05 Aug 2019 15:29

Cult Icon wrote:
05 Aug 2019 13:52
Is there any proper study on this subject besides a couple of <judgmental> sentences in a few books?

Black Marks: Hitler's Bribery of His Senior Officers during World War II
Norman J. W. Goda
The Journal of Modern History
Vol. 72, No. 2 (June 2000), pp. 413-452
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Peter89
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Peter89 » 05 Aug 2019 15:40

Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:13
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
He received more stuffs to read than he could read in a week. We should give him some time :milsmile:
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 16:02

Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:13
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
You should read your own sources Leeb was not quoted.Even your source admits that you cannot know what the officers who received the awards thought and what influence it had on them as they did not talk about that.It is all speculation.

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 16:11

Peter89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:40
Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:13
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
He received more stuffs to read than he could read in a week. We should give him some time :milsmile:
It did not take much time and it is all speculation.Even the author admits that as he cannot look in the officers minds. I only have to look at how they interracted with Hitler to know that a lot of the speculation does not hold water.Despite all the gifts they still disagreed and got fired.Without gifts their political loyalty would still be a given.Take the gifts away and history will not change.

Peter89
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Peter89 » 05 Aug 2019 16:46

Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 16:11
Peter89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:40
Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:13
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
He received more stuffs to read than he could read in a week. We should give him some time :milsmile:
It did not take much time and it is all speculation.Even the author admits that as he cannot look in the officers minds. I only have to look at how they interracted with Hitler to know that a lot of the speculation does not hold water.Despite all the gifts they still disagreed and got fired.Without gifts their political loyalty would still be a given.Take the gifts away and history will not change.
Yes it did not take much time because you haven't actually read the cited sources lol.

There is no shame in admitting you are not aware of these facts. The problem starts when you keep repeating your disproven agenda. Take your time and answer carefully. Peace.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 17:15

Peter89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 16:46
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 16:11
Peter89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:40
Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:13
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 15:07


You are again giving a link to a text which is blatantly incorrect where the socalled 'bribes' are concerned.estate when he lost hope of being employed again.Guderian and Manstein wanted to be actively employed.Managing a farm was a poor alternative.
Incorrect, i have posted a number of authors books, all who all use leeb own comments on being bribed as have being bribed, and that he considered others to have been bribed.

I prefer Leeb account of being bribed over you pet theory he was not. :idea: You seem unaware of Halders view that Hitler bribed Guderian.
He received more stuffs to read than he could read in a week. We should give him some time :milsmile:
It did not take much time and it is all speculation.Even the author admits that as he cannot look in the officers minds. I only have to look at how they interracted with Hitler to know that a lot of the speculation does not hold water.Despite all the gifts they still disagreed and got fired.Without gifts their political loyalty would still be a given.Take the gifts away and history will not change.
Yes it did not take much time because you haven't actually read the cited sources lol.

There is no shame in admitting you are not aware of these facts. The problem starts when you keep repeating your disproven agenda. Take your time and answer carefully. Peace.
It all comes down to one article which was easy to read.The only facts in it are the rewards..All the rest is supposition by the author. He does not pretend to read officers minds.He speculates. I do not see any influence in the officers actions of these rewards. And the biggest hole in this theory is that the large majority of German officers down to 2nd lieutenant did not receive this largesse.Still,they mostly served loyally to the end .So why would they obey their oath while the most senior officers allegedly needed to receive 'bribes'?

Hanny
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Hanny » 05 Aug 2019 17:57

Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 16:02

You should read your own sources Leeb was not quoted.Even your source admits that you cannot know what the officers who received the awards thought and what influence it had on them as they did not talk about that.It is all speculation.
I have read them, clearly you have not. He is quoted in them. There is no speculation, which is why its used in J Tollands bio of AH, I kershaws bio of AH, R Evans 3 vol history, and his UK teaching lecture.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 18:02

Hanny wrote:
05 Aug 2019 17:57
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 16:02

You should read your own sources Leeb was not quoted.Even your source admits that you cannot know what the officers who received the awards thought and what influence it had on them as they did not talk about that.It is all speculation.
I have read them, clearly you have not. He is quoted in them. There is no speculation, which is why its used in J Tollands bio of AH, I kershaws bio of AH, R Evans 3 vol history, and his UK teaching lecture.
At least the author you quote sees the difference between fact and supposition.The rewards are fact and the effects on officers acts are speculation.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Aug 2019 18:26

Peter89 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 11:13
ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2019 10:36

Happy return general . :lol:
xD

The return of the Panzer General :welcome:

I think it is a good question though. Why there are still so many people who believe that the Wehrmacht was "clean"? What is your angle on this matter?
the WM was not clean; they were not that guilty as the Einsatzgruppen, but without their help Baby Yar was not possible . There are a lot of well-known orders from people as Hoeppner, Reichenau, Manstein,telling their troops that the civilians in the east were also their enemy and has to be treated as such .
Letter from Hoeppner to Eichmann ( JUly 16 1941 ) :there is a danger that in the coming winter,it will become impossible to feed all the Jews .It must seriously be considered wether the most humane solution is to finish of the Jews unfit for labour through some fast-acting means.This would definitively be more pleasant than let them starve to death .
Hoeppner was an ambitious man,who was working towards the Führer .Eichmann would tell this to HImmler who would tell it to Hitler.

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 18:41

An article by Winfried Vogel in Die Zeit 14/1997 gives interesting information about the history of the dotations which were already given in Prussia to statesmen and army commanders.Bismarck ,for example,got one which allowed him to buy an estate.The Weimar Republic gave a dotation to Hindenburg which he used to buy an estate.Hitler continued this tradition.Getting a dotation and buying an estate was nothing new for german officers who knew their history.

ljadw
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by ljadw » 05 Aug 2019 19:22

Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 18:41
An article by Winfried Vogel in Die Zeit 14/1997 gives interesting information about the history of the dotations which were already given in Prussia to statesmen and army commanders.Bismarck ,for example,got one which allowed him to buy an estate.The Weimar Republic gave a dotation to Hindenburg which he used to buy an estate.Hitler continued this tradition.Getting a dotation and buying an estate was nothing new for german officers who knew their history.
This is wrong : 1.2 million of RM were raised for Hindenburg's estate : some 800000 RM were provided by the industry and 300000 RM by the banks and patriotic organisations : the Wimar Republic did not intervene .

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Aida1
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Re: where the "Hitler should have listen to his general " come from?

Post by Aida1 » 05 Aug 2019 19:37

ljadw wrote:
05 Aug 2019 19:22
Aida1 wrote:
05 Aug 2019 18:41
An article by Winfried Vogel in Die Zeit 14/1997 gives interesting information about the history of the dotations which were already given in Prussia to statesmen and army commanders.Bismarck ,for example,got one which allowed him to buy an estate.The Weimar Republic gave a dotation to Hindenburg which he used to buy an estate.Hitler continued this tradition.Getting a dotation and buying an estate was nothing new for german officers who knew their history.
This is wrong : 1.2 million of RM were raised for Hindenburg's estate : some 800000 RM were provided by the industry and 300000 RM by the banks and patriotic organisations : the Wimar Republic did not intervene .
True. I misread that in the article i mentioned

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