At what point did Germany lose WW2?

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HistoryGeek2019
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1111

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 11 Aug 2019, 06:19

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:54
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:34

I know right. If you look at what actually happened in the war, America had its way with the Germans from start to finish. America landed in North Africa in November 1942, and less than 2 years later had captured Rome and invaded southern France, but to hear some people, the Germans won by "delaying" the Americans. And in Normandy and France the Allies absolutely obliterated the German army. Even in the Battle of the Bulge, the mighty Wehrmacht was not only delayed, but stopped, by third tier American units. And after that the German army was once again obliterated by the United States.
You have major errors in your post. The German forces in the Ardennes were 3rd tier (KW III, IV common) and not really offensive capable. The US forces were initially outnumbered but then quickly reinforced their position to superiority. Certainly in some areas of the defensive battle their artillery was vastly superior. They were definitely not "third rate" given the severe tactical defeats of certain US infantry and armored divisions, many of which were much better equipped than the formations that pushed through them.

The German forces were- qualitatively- good at defense and delaying regardless of vast numerical superiority- even as their offensive capabilities dried up in 1943. This tends to lead to a lot of alternate history scenarios of the German forces bleeding their enemies dry if they had 2 times, 3, times, etc. more forces..
Hyperbole in describing one battle is a major error? :p

The Germans were good at delaying? So when the Allies landed in Normandy in June 1944, the Germans delaying them from conquering all of Germany for another 11 months is a good delay? :p

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1112

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Aug 2019, 06:29

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:19

Hyperbole in describing one battle is a major error? :p

The Germans were good at delaying? So when the Allies landed in Normandy in June 1944, the Germans delaying them from conquering all of Germany for another 11 months is a good delay? :p
If you are aware of the qualities, number of troops and equipment deployed on both sides - which you seem to be entirely not- :lol: A more natural situation was a total rout in DAYs on the German forces, like "Blitzkrieg" or the defeats taken by the Soviets in 1941 and 1942.

Let me put it this way: You talk about the Germans bring a "knife to gun fight"- I agree entirely with this statement. But why did German formations not disintegrate when their units were bled white which they frequently were? Instead of disintegrating, German combat formations held on for weeks and months while facing forces that outnumbered them 2-5 times or more, and 10 times plus in material (for example). This points to a certain level of unit cohesion and skill in maximizing defensive value of numerically weak resources.

I know you love your country but this is too much :lol:


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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1113

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Aug 2019, 06:48

Cult Icon wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:54


You have major errors in your post. The German forces in the Ardennes were 3rd tier (KW III, IV common) and not really offensive capable.

You appear to have major errors in your post.
I could only check Panzer Divisions but 1st SS. were rated II, Lehr II, 116 Pz Div II & 2nd Pz Div II. No combat rating is given for 2nd SS, 9th SS &12th SS whilst only one, 9th Pz Div, is rated IV. Hardly III, IV common

Globalization41
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1114

Post by Globalization41 » 11 Aug 2019, 07:49

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:09
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:48
Without the Russian Front Hitler could have cut off the Med. at Gibraltar, secured North Africa, captured the Suez Canal, occupied the Turkish Straits, taken Malta, and invaded England successfully, all that with far less divisions required in the East. …

I have heard something like that before.........what was it again?
Ah yes, ' You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,'
How did that prediction turn out?
Hitler predicted before the Russian invasion Stalin's government would break up. Hitler was wrong. Had the Soviet government collapsed, it would have been like Baghdad after the fall of Saddam. The German occupation authorities would still not have been able to control the situation. But none of that lost the war for Germany. … Hitler's declaration of war on America on December 11, 1941, lost the war. … On December 10, 1941, Hitler had not lost the war. He had not won it either. It would have eventually ended in a stalemate with the Line of Demarcation being possibly a little east of Poland.

Globalization41.

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1115

Post by ljadw » 11 Aug 2019, 07:57

Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:48
Without the Russian Front Hitler could have cut off the Med. at Gibraltar, secured North Africa, captured the Suez Canal, occupied the Turkish Straits, taken Malta, and invaded England successfully, all that with far less divisions required in the East. …

Globalization41.
NO : he couldn't, because :
BEFORE June 22 he DID NOT cut off the Mediterranean,he DID NOT secure North Africa,he DID NOT capture the Suez Canal,he DID NOT occupuy the Turkish Strats, he DID NOT take Malta, he DID NOT invade England successfully .
And, before June 22, the SU was not at war with Germany .
The reasons why he did not do these things while he was not at war with the SU are :
1 He could not do them
2 Even if he could do them,they were no substitute for Sea Lion
Sealion was impossible, meanwhile he was thinking on the other things, but very soon he came to the conclusion that he could not do them and that ,if he could do them and did them, he would only wast time and resources.That's why he went east .

ljadw
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1116

Post by ljadw » 11 Aug 2019, 08:01

Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 07:49
Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:09
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:48
Without the Russian Front Hitler could have cut off the Med. at Gibraltar, secured North Africa, captured the Suez Canal, occupied the Turkish Straits, taken Malta, and invaded England successfully, all that with far less divisions required in the East. …

I have heard something like that before.........what was it again?
Ah yes, ' You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,'
How did that prediction turn out?
Hitler predicted before the Russian invasion Stalin's government would break up. Hitler was wrong. Had the Soviet government collapsed, it would have been like Baghdad after the fall of Saddam. The German occupation authorities would still not have been able to control the situation. But none of that lost the war for Germany. … Hitler's declaration of war on America on December 11, 1941, lost the war. … On December 10, 1941, Hitler had not lost the war. He had not won it either. It would have eventually ended in a stalemate with the Line of Demarcation being possibly a little east of Poland.

Globalization41.
That is not true : Hitler had already lost the war in July 1941,when the foundations of Barbarossa proved to be wrong : a coalition of Britain and the SU would defeat Germany, even without an active intervention from the US .
A coalition of Britain and the USA also would have defeated Germany, even when the SU remained neutral or was defeated .

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1117

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:18

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 22:10
Aida1 wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 21:38
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 20:42
Germany certainly planned to fight against the United States, especially after inevitable US intervention became apparent in 1940, but even at that point, Germany still drastically underestimated the overwhelming military might of the United States that would dwarf anything Germany could bring against it.

Germany pinned all its hopes on defeating Russia in a quick summer campaign and then putting all its effort into the KM and LW. But even if Russia had fallen, the United States still would have dwarfed Germany militarily, and it would have been impossible for Germany to defend its over-extended empire against a United States that had the logistical capacity to strike anywhere at any time.
A Germany that only has to fight in the West would be difficult to defeat
Even if Russia falls completely in the summer of 1941, Germany is left in the position of needing to defend Norway, northern France, and North Africa from invasion. Germany isn't going to get naval superiority in the Mediterranean, so the United States can still land virtually unopposed in North Africa in November 1942. Once North Africa falls, Germany faces potential invasion in southern France, Italy and Greece. And the United States can also invade through Spain or Turkey if it chooses. And the Allies can also invade through the Caucasus.

Germany simply doesn't have enough manpower to defend all these places from invasion. And its industrial capacity is still dwarfed by the United States, and even outproduced by Britain in aircraft.

The Allies would bomb Baku into oblivion (and eventually send an army to capture it), so Germany is operating with drastically less fuel than the Allies. This weakens every aspect of Germany's war effort, from domestic production to keeping its planes fueled.

Eventually, the corners of Germany's far flung empire start to crumble one by one. It's just a matter of time. And with the A-bomb on its way, Germany needs to surrender or face total annihilation.
It would still be much more complicated as Germany will be able to use much more and better divisions in the West.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1118

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:22

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:29
Paul Lakowski wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:12
If it had not been gutted by the Russians, then possibly yes.
There were more Panzer Divisions rated 'I' in Normandy than there were rated 'I' in Russia. Also the troop density in Normandy was much greater.

This map is to scale and shows just how packed the Normandy front was compared to BAGRATION.
Bagration Normandy mapds (1)v.jpg
But the Germans particularly lacked good infantry divisions in Normandy.

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Aida1
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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1119

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:25

Paul Lakowski wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:12
Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 00:25
Globalization41 wrote:
10 Aug 2019, 23:57
. Had Hitler not lost so much of his war machine in the Moscow, Stalingrad, and Kursk blunders, the Germans might have had enough fighting power to contain the Normandy beachhead long enough for the Allies to deploy the A-bomb.

So you think the army that got handed its backside in Russia would suddenly become 'unbeatable' if it was in France?
If it had not been gutted by the Russians, then possibly yes.
Exactly.All the attrition in Russia made the German army lose a lot of valuable manpower.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1120

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:28

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 04:43
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:41
If powerful armies like those on the Eastern Front had been available in the West.............
I believe the argument being used here is that the German Armies in The East were broken-down under-manned and under-supplied shells and thus not that powerful after all.
The huge German Army was only needed to fight in Russia. If there was not a Russian Front the Germans would not keep that size of a standing Army.
No doubt but you have many more divisions and better manpower without all the attrition.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1121

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:38

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 04:57
Paul Lakowski wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:50



There is a hell of a lot more to winning campaigns/wars than a comparison of divisions.
I am trying to do is get through to those who seem to believe a German force/Army just has to reach the battlefield and they are assured of a victory. It is a difficult mind-set to escape once it infects. The Allied Armies that landed on June 6th were specifically designed and crafted to find, fix and then destroy ANY German force they encountered. Something they did in spectacular fashion. To read some of the replies here you would think that the Allies had to be forced at gunpoint from their landing craft and then spent all their time ashore being soundly trounced whenever they had the audacity to advance and engage. We hear nothing but 'this' Allied attack was a 'failure' and 'that' Allied attack was stopped and destroyed. Every single engagement seems to end in a German victory and even when the Germans have to admit a defeat/retreat a 'moral victory' is then claimed if more Shermans were lost than Panthers!
Nobody said so.You seem to be thinking that a stronger German Force makes no difference and that allies are invincible.Things would be at least much more difficult.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1122

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:42

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:34
Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 04:57
Paul Lakowski wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 03:50



There is a hell of a lot more to winning campaigns/wars than a comparison of divisions.
I am trying to do is get through to those who seem to believe a German force/Army just has to reach the battlefield and they are assured of a victory. It is a difficult mind-set to escape once it infects. The Allied Armies that landed on June 6th were specifically designed and crafted to find, fix and then destroy ANY German force they encountered. Something they did in spectacular fashion. To read some of the replies here you would think that the Allies had to be forced at gunpoint from their landing craft and then spent all their time ashore being soundly trounced whenever they had the audacity to advance and engage. We hear nothing but 'this' Allied attack was a 'failure' and 'that' Allied attack was stopped and destroyed. Every single engagement seems to end in a German victory and even when the Germans have to admit a defeat/retreat a 'moral victory' is then claimed if more Shermans were lost than Panthers!
I know right. If you look at what actually happened in the war, America had its way with the Germans from start to finish. America landed in North Africa in November 1942, and less than 2 years later had captured Rome and invaded southern France, but to hear some people, the Germans won by "delaying" the Americans. And in Normandy and France the Allies absolutely obliterated the German army. Even in the Battle of the Bulge, the mighty Wehrmacht was not only delayed, but stopped, by third tier American units. And after that the German army was once again obliterated by the United States.

Germany brought a knife to a gun fight.
You are misrepresenting what has been said and overstating what actually happened.Overblown retoric is not historic fact.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1123

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 11:47

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:19
Cult Icon wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:54
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:34

I know right. If you look at what actually happened in the war, America had its way with the Germans from start to finish. America landed in North Africa in November 1942, and less than 2 years later had captured Rome and invaded southern France, but to hear some people, the Germans won by "delaying" the Americans. And in Normandy and France the Allies absolutely obliterated the German army. Even in the Battle of the Bulge, the mighty Wehrmacht was not only delayed, but stopped, by third tier American units. And after that the German army was once again obliterated by the United States.
You have major errors in your post. The German forces in the Ardennes were 3rd tier (KW III, IV common) and not really offensive capable. The US forces were initially outnumbered but then quickly reinforced their position to superiority. Certainly in some areas of the defensive battle their artillery was vastly superior. They were definitely not "third rate" given the severe tactical defeats of certain US infantry and armored divisions, many of which were much better equipped than the formations that pushed through them.

The German forces were- qualitatively- good at defense and delaying regardless of vast numerical superiority- even as their offensive capabilities dried up in 1943. This tends to lead to a lot of alternate history scenarios of the German forces bleeding their enemies dry if they had 2 times, 3, times, etc. more forces..
Hyperbole in describing one battle is a major error? :p

The Germans were good at delaying? So when the Allies landed in Normandy in June 1944, the Germans delaying them from conquering all of Germany for another 11 months is a good delay? :p
You massively overstated so you cannot complain being found out on big factual errors.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1124

Post by Aida1 » 11 Aug 2019, 12:14

Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:48
Cult Icon wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:54


You have major errors in your post. The German forces in the Ardennes were 3rd tier (KW III, IV common) and not really offensive capable.

You appear to have major errors in your post.
I could only check Panzer Divisions but 1st SS. were rated II, Lehr II, 116 Pz Div II & 2nd Pz Div II. No combat rating is given for 2nd SS, 9th SS &12th SS whilst only one, 9th Pz Div, is rated IV. Hardly III, IV common
He got it wrong too too but German mobile divisions had had to be refitted very fast which does not allow for enough time to sufficiently train all the new recruits.These divisions were not the same Quality as in the summer of 1944.Infantrydivisions were certainly low Quality.

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Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1125

Post by jesk » 13 Aug 2019, 09:13

ljadw wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 08:01
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 07:49
Michael Kenny wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 06:09
Globalization41 wrote:
11 Aug 2019, 05:48
Without the Russian Front Hitler could have cut off the Med. at Gibraltar, secured North Africa, captured the Suez Canal, occupied the Turkish Straits, taken Malta, and invaded England successfully, all that with far less divisions required in the East. …

I have heard something like that before.........what was it again?
Ah yes, ' You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down,'
How did that prediction turn out?
Hitler predicted before the Russian invasion Stalin's government would break up. Hitler was wrong. Had the Soviet government collapsed, it would have been like Baghdad after the fall of Saddam. The German occupation authorities would still not have been able to control the situation. But none of that lost the war for Germany. … Hitler's declaration of war on America on December 11, 1941, lost the war. … On December 10, 1941, Hitler had not lost the war. He had not won it either. It would have eventually ended in a stalemate with the Line of Demarcation being possibly a little east of Poland.

Globalization41.
That is not true : Hitler had already lost the war in July 1941,when the foundations of Barbarossa proved to be wrong : a coalition of Britain and the SU would defeat Germany, even without an active intervention from the US .
A coalition of Britain and the USA also would have defeated Germany, even when the SU remained neutral or was defeated .
See the diaries of Halder and von Bock. The last very much wanted to attack Moscow in July. Hitler forbade... Germans could do it!

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