One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by jesk » 17 Aug 2019 21:10

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 09:52
In July 1941 Keitel told Bock that Hitler now hoped on a Japanese intervention to save him .
That is a historical fact .
It's a lie. Von Bock summarized the thoughts of all Germans - it would be good if the Japanese attack Russia.

https://e-libra.ru/read/363132-ya-stoya ... centr.html

25/7/41

Keitel switched to international problems and said that it was not easy for him to reconcile with the occupation of Iceland by the Americans, especially taking into account the fact that our submariners were strictly instructed to sink only the ships of hostile states in order to prevent America from entering the war on the side of England. It is interesting that the Americans used this pretext to enter the World War, and I fear that it would not be difficult for them to conceive of a similar pretext to enter the current war. The Japanese are preoccupied with establishing their dominance in Indochina, but they do not demonstrate a special desire to attack Russia, which we look forward to from them! However, neither one nor the other does not surprise me.

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by jesk » 17 Aug 2019 21:29

Terry Duncan wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:03
The battle of Minsk-Bialystok does seem very disproportionate compared to other battles, and if we take the entire opening of Barbarossa up to early dec 1941, Wikipedia gives the losses as over 1,000,000 for the Germans and 4,973,820 for the Soviets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Whilst not favourable for the Soviets, the figures balance out with the Germans losing more men than they could replace, and we know the Soviets did make good their losses more than adequately.
Even the fighting on the Kola Peninsula cost the Germans 30 thousand. What is this talking about. The Germans must look for a way out in deep strategic operations. With the rapid capture of enemy territory.

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by Yuri » 17 Aug 2019 22:32

Terry Duncan wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:03
Quite possible for early Barbarossa, but by late November they had the information from their spy network that Japan had no intention of fighting the Soviets again after the two earlier debacles. This would leave all those nice Siberian divisions to hold the line, and there is no reason Stalin is forced to launch Typhoon if the Germans have been doing slightly better.
It is a myth.
In fact it was the opposite - in December 1941 from the reserve of Supreme command to strengthen the Far Eastern and TRANS-Baikal fronts was transferred to 4 rifle divisions, 2 rifle brigades, 2 tank brigades and addition 60 T-34 and 20 KV-1.
That is, not from the Far East to Moscow, but from Moscow to the Far East sent an army. For example, my father-in-law (wife's father) served in the Far East since 1939, sent West to the Soviet-European theater of operations in February 1943 (on the Central front).

A valuable Soviet spy in Japan is also a myth.
The General staff (GRU) did not consider it a reliable source, its value as a source of information is zero. Even in 1960, when Khrushchev demanded to write a presentation on the assignment Sorge the title Hero of Soviet Union, the General staff categorically refused to do it. After that, Khrushchev ordered the General Department of the Central Committee of CPSU to write such a submission.
The very valuable information on Japan Stalin received in June 1942 from American pilots, who sent to the bottom of Pacific four Japanese aircraft carrier off the island Midway.

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Aug 2019 00:21

ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 12:09
Did YOU read Hitler beyond evil and Tyranny ?
Of course not .
It is worse than everything Irving has written '
No, but I read his 7th Panzer Division book and Hitler Moves East a very long time ago. The 7th Panzer division book is worthwhile.

You have a tendency to reorganize everything into a manichean conspiracy theory, so I trust you as much as Irving... :lol:

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by David Thompson » 18 Aug 2019 00:39

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Aug 2019 05:41

Terry Duncan wrote:
17 Aug 2019 20:03
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
16 Aug 2019 02:52
In Barbarossa Germany had only a few security divisions and, with its allies, was able to maintain adequate security. The allies alone probably could have maintained security in an expanded occupation zone.
Plus partisan activity was sensitive to the course of the war and was lower when it looked like the Germans would win. Few men like to fight voluntarily for lost causes after all. So greater German success means less security burden.
I appreciate that this isn't your specialty interest area but I'd still want to see evidence of a claim before crediting it.
The only real practical evidence I have about needed large numbers of troops to control occupied land is that of WWI, where just over one million men were left in the east leading up to the Spring Offensive in 1918, and that was in a situation where the majority of the population in many areas were actively pro-German and puppet pro-German governments had been set up and no frontline troops were required as the Russian army was now starting to engage in civil war.
Um, Terry, we also have direct evidence from World War II. In HG-Mitte by mid-May 1943, a total of 78 battalions and 70 companies (the equivalent of another 17 1/2 battalions) were occupied as security troops, including Sicherungstruppen and Landeseigene Verbände.
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
16 Aug 2019 02:52
Is there any evidence that's true? AGC reported only ~12,000 casualties in the Minsk/Bialystok battle.
It's surely true that Germany lost more men than expected in Barbarossa, but that's largely because they expected large-scale fighting for 6 weeks or so.
AG's North and South had minimal Kessel fighting for the first few months.
The Ostheer had ~300,000 replacements ready when it launched Barbarossa, those were sufficient to cover the first couple months' losses.
The battle of Minsk-Bialystok does seem very disproportionate compared to other battles, and if we take the entire opening of Barbarossa up to early dec 1941, Wikipedia gives the losses as over 1,000,000 for the Germans and 4,973,820 for the Soviets. [/qipte]

It is emphatically not true that the "AGC reported only ~ 12,000 casualties in the Minsk/Bialystok battle". In fact, HG-Mitte reported 23,188 battle casualties 22 June-6 July. (RW6-556)

Nor is it true that the "Ostheer had ~ 300,000 replacements ready when it launched Barbarossa". That is a lame misstatement of my early post. To restate the facts, the Ostheer had 80,000 replacements in its FEB as of 22 June. Four weeks later they were exhausted. (MH, Das Heer, p.19.) The Ersatzheer had 320,000 trained replacements available at the outset of BARBAROSSA and dispatched c. 28,507 by 28 June, by 4 July, just 31,850 were still available and had not been forwarded, while 65,000 replacements arrived in the Ostheer during July and another 110,000 during August. By September the Erstazheer was so depleted of trained replacements that ten battalions were stripped from the occupation forces in the West to augment the Ersatz...and 102,000 replacements arrived with the Ostheer during the month. (RH15/205 „Iststärke des Ersatzheers"; DRZW 5/1, p.1020.)

The "first couple months' [sic] losses" were actually:

June - 39,547 to 41,058 and c. 54,000 sick
July - 158,619 battle casualties and c. 17,000 sick
August - 183,704 to 196,725 battle casualties and c. 68,000 sick
By the end of September, losses totaled 708,370 and replacements (including the FEB) totaled around 463,000, leaving a shortfall of c. 245,000. Thus, on average every division was short 1,644 men...most of them infantry.

The problem was getting the replacements from the Ersatzheer to the Ostheer, due mostly to those logistical problems that keep getting poo-pooed as irrelevant. There was only so much water that could be forced through the hose, which meant the last of those 320,000 replacements dispatched did not arrive in the east until October, by which time the Ersatzheer was beginning to intake JG-22, which meant that most of the RAD units serving in the Ostheer's rear area were about to be withdrawn and sent to the Ersatzheer.
Richard C. Anderson Jr.

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 07:42

jesk wrote:
17 Aug 2019 18:48
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 09:24
jesk wrote:
17 Aug 2019 06:46
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 06:40
jesk wrote:
17 Aug 2019 06:29


You have been pointed out many times to mistakes. But you persistently repeat the lie. Why? Von Bock was ready to attack Moscow in July and August. Leeb take Leningrad, Rundstedt Kiev in July. And only Hitler prevented them.
Von Bock was not ready : logistics would ensure that he failed .Bock was still 400 km away from Moscow.Besides,the capture of Moscow would not help the Germans, it would only hinder them .
Why guaranteed? Stolfi analyzed the issue even on the basis of one base near Minsk. But there the conclusions are limited. July 15 is already 2 base and in fact the supply is better.
Hitler had already given up in July : he knew that Barbarossa had failed .
Hitler knew that which you did not know. And you know what Hitler did not think about.
On July 21 the combat readiness from PzGr 2 was down to 42 % .
And what Stolfi was writing should be publicly burned . Not one iota of what he said is correct .
Not necessarily Stolfi. In various threads, they referred to Halder as a witness to the presence of logistic problems. And they were, but the links to Wagner are funny. Wagner talked about the ability of one base on July 15 and this is presented as the impossibility of attacking Moscow.
The number of tanks fell to 42%, but the problems of the Russians are much greater. 50% of their army in July on the outskirts of Moscow - Volkssturm (Russian counterpart).
Volkssturm ? :roll:
Without this Volkssturm,the Germans would be at the Volga.
German losses
June :41000
July : 170000
August : 200000
September : 150000
That's the work of the Soviet Volkssturm.
The Germans lost in June and July 580 tanks and got 87 replacements
In August they lost 600 tanks and got 9 replacements .
That's the work of the Soviet Volkssturm .
The Germans had lost a third of their tanks and a big part of the remaining ones were in repair .
A successful advance and attack against Moscow was out of the question, because of logistical reasons and because of the distance .
That was already incalculated/accepted during the Barbbarossa planning .
If Typhoon was possible, it was not needed.
If Typhoon was needed, it was impossible .
A successful Typhoon (August/September ) would only hinder the Germans .
The only thing the Ostheer could do after the border fighting,was a pursuit of a defeated enemy who was on the run . As the enemy was not defeated and was not on the run,the Ostheer had its hands tied behind its back .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 07:50

jesk wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:10
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 09:52
In July 1941 Keitel told Bock that Hitler now hoped on a Japanese intervention to save him .
That is a historical fact .
It's a lie. Von Bock summarized the thoughts of all Germans - it would be good if the Japanese attack Russia.

https://e-libra.ru/read/363132-ya-stoya ... centr.html

25/7/41

Keitel switched to international problems and said that it was not easy for him to reconcile with the occupation of Iceland by the Americans, especially taking into account the fact that our submariners were strictly instructed to sink only the ships of hostile states in order to prevent America from entering the war on the side of England. It is interesting that the Americans used this pretext to enter the World War, and I fear that it would not be difficult for them to conceive of a similar pretext to enter the current war. The Japanese are preoccupied with establishing their dominance in Indochina, but they do not demonstrate a special desire to attack Russia, which we look forward to from them! However, neither one nor the other does not surprise me.
I have more trust in the original German text presented by a German historian ,than in the English translation of the Russian translation of the German text .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 08:53

jesk wrote:
17 Aug 2019 21:10
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 09:52
In July 1941 Keitel told Bock that Hitler now hoped on a Japanese intervention to save him .
That is a historical fact .
It's a lie. Von Bock summarized the thoughts of all Germans - it would be good if the Japanese attack Russia.

https://e-libra.ru/read/363132-ya-stoya ... centr.html

25/7/41

Keitel switched to international problems and said that it was not easy for him to reconcile with the occupation of Iceland by the Americans, especially taking into account the fact that our submariners were strictly instructed to sink only the ships of hostile states in order to prevent America from entering the war on the side of England. It is interesting that the Americans used this pretext to enter the World War, and I fear that it would not be difficult for them to conceive of a similar pretext to enter the current war. The Japanese are preoccupied with establishing their dominance in Indochina, but they do not demonstrate a special desire to attack Russia, which we look forward to from them! However, neither one nor the other does not surprise me.
A Japanese attack on Russia would not help Germany .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 11:16

Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:35
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 17:34
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 16:30
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 15:17
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 10:00


And we are supposed to take your word for that as usual.Nothing sourced.Everything in a book is wrong because you say so without refuting all that is said in it point by point as you should do.
If you are that ignorant that you don't know about the existence of the Historical Division and Halder's role in it, it is not on me to teach you the essentials of WWII.
Do not take me for a fool.I perfectly know about the us army historical division and the texts written for it by German officers.I read probably more of them than you.All of them of a purely military nature and sometimes very interesting.Nothing to do with a socalled clean Wehrmacht myth.As usual you make blanket statements without specifics.
The Historical Division was used to innocent the WM of Auschwitz and the defeat .
Christian Hartmann in ''Halder,der verhinderte generalstabschef " p 208 :Halder was one of the architects of the myth of the clean WM.
Halder ordered the German members f the HD to emphasize the ''decent '' form of the war conducted by the army and to blame the SS for the criminal operations .(Wette : the WM History,Myth and Reality P 236 .)
Manstein held the same antisemitic and racist views as Hitler ( Smelser and Davies :The Myth of the Eastern Front :the Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture PP 97-98 ) .
And most of the texts written by the Germans for the HD were very biased and influenced by racist thinking .
Which clearly illustrates you never read any of them as they were of a pure military nature and mostly about the western front ,Italy and north africa.
They were mostly about the Eastern Front,as this was where the Americans were interested in . And they were mostly propaganda ( Erschriebene Siege ) where the Russians were described as Untermenschen ,.
Erhard Raus wrote in his paper '' Besonderheiten der russische Kampführung ''(1950 ) that the Russian soldiers had no empathy for their killed comrades .
Source : Esther-Julia Howell : Von den Besiegten lernen ? Die kriegsgeschichtliche Kooperation der US Armee und der ehemaligen Wehrmachtselite 1945-1961 P 249 .
And Peter Tsouras (retired US colonel ) used the German papers for the HD for his book :Fighting in the Hell: the German ordeal on the Eastern Front (1995 ) where he wrote that the brutaly of the war in the east was caused by the connection of the geografical situations with an almost inhuman mentality of the native population .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by Aida1 » 18 Aug 2019 11:42

ljadw wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:16
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:35
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 17:34
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 16:30
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 15:17

If you are that ignorant that you don't know about the existence of the Historical Division and Halder's role in it, it is not on me to teach you the essentials of WWII.
Do not take me for a fool.I perfectly know about the us army historical division and the texts written for it by German officers.I read probably more of them than you.All of them of a purely military nature and sometimes very interesting.Nothing to do with a socalled clean Wehrmacht myth.As usual you make blanket statements without specifics.
The Historical Division was used to innocent the WM of Auschwitz and the defeat .
Christian Hartmann in ''Halder,der verhinderte generalstabschef " p 208 :Halder was one of the architects of the myth of the clean WM.
Halder ordered the German members f the HD to emphasize the ''decent '' form of the war conducted by the army and to blame the SS for the criminal operations .(Wette : the WM History,Myth and Reality P 236 .)
Manstein held the same antisemitic and racist views as Hitler ( Smelser and Davies :The Myth of the Eastern Front :the Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture PP 97-98 ) .
And most of the texts written by the Germans for the HD were very biased and influenced by racist thinking .
Which clearly illustrates you never read any of them as they were of a pure military nature and mostly about the western front ,Italy and north africa.
They were mostly about the Eastern Front,as this was where the Americans were interested in . And they were mostly propaganda ( Erschriebene Siege ) where the Russians were described as Untermenschen ,.
Erhard Raus wrote in his paper '' Besonderheiten der russische Kampführung ''(1950 ) that the Russian soldiers had no empathy for their killed comrades .
Source : Esther-Julia Howell : Von den Besiegten lernen ? Die kriegsgeschichtliche Kooperation der US Armee und der ehemaligen Wehrmachtselite 1945-1961 P 249 .
And Peter Tsouras (retired US colonel ) used the German papers for the HD for his book :Fighting in the Hell: the German ordeal on the Eastern Front (1995 ) where he wrote that the brutaly of the war in the east was caused by the connection of the geografical situations with an almost inhuman mentality of the native population .
You are writing fiction here.Only a minority were about the eastern front because that was not what the us army was mainly interested in.If you look on the overview you will see that texts on the eastern front are a small exception.
http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/FMS/Gu ... tudies.pdf

And that the red army was pretty callous about the lives of it's own soldiers is not a revelation.Stalins regime was very brutal.

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by Cult Icon » 18 Aug 2019 13:36

ljadw wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:16

And most of the texts written by the Germans for the HD were very biased and influenced by racist thinking .

They were mostly about the Eastern Front,as this was where the Americans were interested in . And they were mostly propaganda ( Erschriebene Siege ) where the Russians were described as Untermenschen ,.
Erhard Raus wrote in his paper '' Besonderheiten der russische Kampführung ''(1950 ) that the Russian soldiers had no empathy for their killed comrades .
Source : Esther-Julia Howell : Von den Besiegten lernen ? Die kriegsgeschichtliche Kooperation der US Armee und der ehemaligen Wehrmachtselite 1945-1961 P 249 .
And Peter Tsouras (retired US colonel ) used the German papers for the HD for his book :Fighting in the Hell: the German ordeal on the Eastern Front (1995 ) where he wrote that the brutaly of the war in the east was caused by the connection of the geografical situations with an almost inhuman mentality of the native population .
This is what I mean about over-exaggeration of casual opinions in these texts.
I have most of the books you have and typically read them cover to cover or use them as reference). The primary purpose of the work of the German officers for the US Historical division was to report on their combat experiences and it was of a tactical and operational nature. Many of these are available for free online. I have, and certainly a lot of AHF posters have read them. There are numerous threads about them. I don't recall any of a political nature and they about problems encountered in the field and of little interest to political types. Maybe Raus was too proud of his achievements and had too much of a positive spin of the achievements of the 6th Panzer Division and his Korps/Army commands- can you blame him like any other general? As for Guderian and Manstein's memoirs, while they can be accused as bias they aren't that ahistorical as some has presented. They are, after all, opinions and certainly in their times they were ignorant of the Red Army's positions/operational history during the information wall of the Cold War. Not as bad in my view as the conspiracy theory espoused- I have never encountered it being developed at with any depth.

The infrequent racist comments of the Soviets made by German soldiers is routine however it is also how people in the 30s (to as late as the 60s, 70s, and 80s) thought of race. You tend to inflate them in posts on the internet to something they aren't and collect them in your notes as a talking point, which can be recycled on-call. A single sentence about how the Soviets behave is now converted to a racist, conspiratorial agenda. Somehow you never mention the sentences where they describe the Soviets as masters of digging and physically more hardier than the Germans, which in today's environment would be interpreted as racist as well.

I don't see this as limited to German racism but also whatever topics that you invariably choose to argue about.

On a further note, "Myth of the Eastern Front" is one of the most damaging/prejudiced books I've ever read- it resembles a conspiracy theory and set my own learning path back by installing wrong-headed prejudices (in my then much more ignorant mind) that had to be removed later. Same for other books of its type. After decade of reading it I condemn its qualities. The authors probably have 10% of my current knowledge of the Eastern Front and 1% of that of the best Axishistory posters!

(Thompson, I don't know if you consider this "personal" but these are observations from seeing Ijaiw's posts for over a decade and being mal-informed by them- commentary on analytical style)

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 14:20

Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:42
ljadw wrote:
18 Aug 2019 11:16
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 19:35
ljadw wrote:
17 Aug 2019 17:34
Aida1 wrote:
17 Aug 2019 16:30


Do not take me for a fool.I perfectly know about the us army historical division and the texts written for it by German officers.I read probably more of them than you.All of them of a purely military nature and sometimes very interesting.Nothing to do with a socalled clean Wehrmacht myth.As usual you make blanket statements without specifics.
The Historical Division was used to innocent the WM of Auschwitz and the defeat .
Christian Hartmann in ''Halder,der verhinderte generalstabschef " p 208 :Halder was one of the architects of the myth of the clean WM.
Halder ordered the German members f the HD to emphasize the ''decent '' form of the war conducted by the army and to blame the SS for the criminal operations .(Wette : the WM History,Myth and Reality P 236 .)
Manstein held the same antisemitic and racist views as Hitler ( Smelser and Davies :The Myth of the Eastern Front :the Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture PP 97-98 ) .
And most of the texts written by the Germans for the HD were very biased and influenced by racist thinking .
Which clearly illustrates you never read any of them as they were of a pure military nature and mostly about the western front ,Italy and north africa.
They were mostly about the Eastern Front,as this was where the Americans were interested in . And they were mostly propaganda ( Erschriebene Siege ) where the Russians were described as Untermenschen ,.
Erhard Raus wrote in his paper '' Besonderheiten der russische Kampführung ''(1950 ) that the Russian soldiers had no empathy for their killed comrades .
Source : Esther-Julia Howell : Von den Besiegten lernen ? Die kriegsgeschichtliche Kooperation der US Armee und der ehemaligen Wehrmachtselite 1945-1961 P 249 .
And Peter Tsouras (retired US colonel ) used the German papers for the HD for his book :Fighting in the Hell: the German ordeal on the Eastern Front (1995 ) where he wrote that the brutaly of the war in the east was caused by the connection of the geografical situations with an almost inhuman mentality of the native population .
You are writing fiction here.Only a minority were about the eastern front because that was not what the us army was mainly interested in.If you look on the overview you will see that texts on the eastern front are a small exception.
http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/FMS/Gu ... tudies.pdf

And that the red army was pretty callous about the lives of it's own soldiers is not a revelation.Stalins regime was very brutal.
1At the start of the Cold War,the US army was only interested in informations about the fighting qualities/capacities of the Red Army .
2 What Raus was writing was NOT about the Red Army,but about the individual Soviet soldier ,who, he said had no empathy for hid dead comrades .He did not say that the Red Army was callous : he said that for the average Russian a human live had no value . Which is not only racist, but also an attempt to excuse the murder of countless civilians,by the SS and by the WM .
That the Stalinist regime was very brutal is totally besides the question : Hitler also was very brutal .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 14:37

After WWII the German generals wanted to come back and have again a prominent role .
They could do this only by
1 convincing the German and American public opinion that they had nothing to do with the Holocaust .
Example : by hiding the massacre of Baby Yar,otherwise people could ask who owned the trucks that transported the Jews to the places where they were murdered . As it was not the SS,and it were not the Martians,the answer would be : the army .And the myth of the Clean Wehrmacht would be destroyed .
2 convincing the German and American people that not they, but Hitler was responsible for the defeat. Otherwise, the Americans could say that they would not give $ billions to constitute an army commanded by a bunch of losers .
Halder started the propaganda offensive with Hitler als Feldherr ( a new version of The Elders of Sion ) : everything was the fault of Hitler wrote the man who received and accepted Hitler's money .
Than, as we could expect, the imposter Guderian published , in collaboration with the imposter Hart,Panzerleader .
And, when he was liberated from prison, Manstein also published a book full of lies : Verlorene Siege: it was the fault of Hitler that Germany lost ,said the man who also received and accepted Hitler's gifts .
And, an other one, but not the last,was a USMC officer, who unhindered by any knowledge,but with as baggage only bias, also said that it was all the fault of Hitler .

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Re: One more panzer group in Barbarossa, plans for a two-year campaign

Post by ljadw » 18 Aug 2019 14:46

I will also add that Hitler's Panzers East was very positively reviewed by the Institute of Historical Review.
I think that this is saying enough .

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