Classification of a wreck

[Michael Kenny]

Be so very kind and post the words of the delegate from january 20, on page 238.

And as you love your colors so much, I would like the last sentence before "delegate remarked further:" in red.

I am not your copying service nor do I do your transcribing for you. If you have a point then post it and I will respond.

[Yoozername]

Just so we are on the same page...I seem to be arguing using data from the West 44...MK is bringing up the east 43...

To be precise using numbers in the West before the Invasion.

More precisely, you missed the point.

[Yoozername]

I must admit that I just like looking at data like the Homeland data....

https://panzerworld.com/homeland-armor-maintenance

I guess it goes with the whole engineering/Aspergers baggage...

In any case, one could make a good argument from just that data. An example would be....The number of StuGs sent seems very low considering its production rate and use. The repair rate is fairly good with acceptable scrap rate. One could surmise that they were more easily repaired at the front or depot level. One man's wreck is another mans repop.

Of course, the counter-argument would be that there was a big 400+ fleet of Panzer III sitting there, and StuG would get priority on parts.

I might stick that data in excel and graph it. It might be possible that as many panthers that ended up there got scrapped than repaired.

[Maxschnauzer]

I'm just glad I wasn't the tillerman on that Sd. Ah. 116!

[Yoozername]

I'm just glad I wasn't the tillerman on that Sd. Ah. 116!

LOL! My Dad was a NYC fire lieutenant. He once had a rig parked in front of our house with the rear steer position. We kids all played on it. Looking back, I wonder why it was even there.

[Yoozername]

It was a recognised problem.

And yet those orders changed nothing about the number of tanks sent to homeland for repair.

Strange.

Not all tanks were that badly damaged that they qualified to be sent for Homeland Repair.
A tank had to have suffered extremely significant damage to be shipped home.

Be so very kind and post the words of the delegate from january 20, on page 238.

And as you love your colors so much, I would like the last sentence before "delegate remarked further:" in red.


And yet again, as this is directly after what you posted, the question of bad faith remains.

This sounds interesting.

Can anyone post this?

Thanks

[Ulater]

One could just use this source to answer a lot of so called "questions" asked here.

Repairing the Panzers 2, page - 238:

"The Panzer maintenance in the homeland is ending in disaster. THe Heimatinstandsetzung cannot process the evacuated Panzers. Despite all preparations the companies are not capable of accepting further Panzers. Among the Panzers delivered are also vehicles with relatively little damage."

There were vehicles with "relatively little damage." Well, that might not mean much in the grand scheme of things, as our scheming Germans intent on sick K/D ratios were surely trying to disguise as many "smoking wrecks" in the system as they could.

Repairing the Panzers 2, page 241 :





And in case any out context pics of tanks on trains in Normandy were posted here, keep in mind:

Panzers in Normandy, Then and now, p. 6:

"Its integral means of logistic support gave a panzer regiment the appearance of being virtually self-supporting other than in river-crossing (when it was dependent on the divisional engineers battalion) but, in practice, this was not often the case. Service companies, for instance, were lacking in half the tank battalions at the outbreak of the battle, whilst half the panzer regiments were without a repair company."

[Michael Kenny]

And in case any out context pics of tanks on trains in Normandy were posted here, keep in mind:

Panzers in Normandy, Then and now, p. 6:

"Its integral means of logistic support gave a panzer regiment the appearance of being virtually self-supporting other than in river-crossing (when it was dependent on the divisional engineers battalion) but, in practice, this was not often the case. Service companies, for instance, were lacking in half the tank battalions at the outbreak of the battle, whilst half the panzer regiments were without a repair company."

Which is why it was madness for the Units to hang on to their wrecks as they lacked the resources to move these crocks once their front was broken and they ran for home.

[Michael Kenny]

Or maybe just look at the West on May 31 1944? Basically before D-Day. 1244 operational, and 222 in repair (~15%)? The report I posted was from June 25th. If your theory had any credibility, there should be many dozens of smoking hulks being kept on the books.

Using counts from May 1944 instead of when the action started is disingenuous. 1st SS kept good records and the number of wrecks they carried is quite high,

[Yoozername]

Using counts from May 1944 instead of when the action started is disingenuous. Lehr kept good records and the number of wrecks they carried is quite high,

Again, my source stated a date of June 15th. But I think I see you want to ignore my point anyway.

[Yoozername]

I don't think that this data supports your argument. Long Term repair is generally 14 days. The numbers for July 1st certainly show that the Long term repairs have been reduced? I am at a loss at what you think the data shows? And after July 1st, the data is not linear or that 'good'. Lehr had to move July 7th and you are going to prove they dragged along all these 'wrecks' as you have been saying????

"Its integral means of logistic support gave a panzer regiment the appearance of being virtually self-supporting other than in river-crossing (when it was dependent on the divisional engineers battalion) but, in practice, this was not often the case. Service companies, for instance, were lacking in half the tank battalions at the outbreak of the battle, whilst half the panzer regiments were without a repair company."

Given the transportation issues with bridges and rail yards being cratered, I wonder just what options there were for sending panzers 'back home'?

[Michael Kenny]

I don't think that this data supports your argument. Long Term repair is generally 14 days. The numbers for July 1st certainly show that the Long term repairs have been reduced?

Whilst you can say the data does not confirm my argument it does not disprove it either. The 'in repair' total is still 39 Pz IV. They might have changed the designation of the crocks but they did not greatly increase the number of tanks fit for action. The hurdle is the move into 'fit for action' not a reclassification of the type of damage preventing use. It is entirely possible some (or even all) the 10 left in long-term repair are total losses being carried for spares. Lehr was hammered in the first fortnight of its debut in Normandy and lost the use of well over half its tanks.

[Michael Kenny]

Again, my source stated a date of June 15th. But I think I see you want to ignore my point anyway.

Because both sets of numbers are identical then it follows they are the same count and must have been compiled by the date of the earliest version of May. It does not matter that someone then puts a June date on the data because it will not change the fact it was first compiled in May.

[Ulater]

Which is why it was madness for the Units to hang on to their wrecks as they lacked the resources to move these crocks once their front was broken and they ran for home.

What wrecks? WHat they were holding on to?


And very nice that you completely ignore that non-cherrypicked version of your source completely disproves what you say.


So, seeing now, that vehicles repaired in homeland, which is about 10% of all repairs, were repaired at about 10:1 ratio of being scrapped, proves that we might as well say that there are no wrecks.


But oh well, I forgot who am I talking to.


Now, a long-term repair, which is depending on who you ask, 8 days to 2 weeks, now means that tank is a wreck.


Sell me that. WIth some actual evidence I wont have to triple-check.

[Michael Kenny]

What wrecks? WHat they were holding on to?

The 'heavily damaged' panzers mentioned in my previous post:

Now, a long-term repair, which is depending on who you ask, 8 days to 2 weeks, now means that tank is a wreck.

No one is saying that. However any non-repairable wreck kept as a source of spares will be in the Long Term Repair count. Think of it like this-all Swiss are Europeans but that does not mean all Europeans are Swiss.