Classification of a wreck

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#286

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 19 Oct 2019, 17:26

Ulater wrote:
18 Oct 2019, 22:55
his all is just further semantics.

One of the Tigers has its turret turned, so it was functional at some point on that train, and all are in a good suspension state.
Are you saying these were all functional tanks? Which way was the train going - towards the front or back to a repair yard?

Regards

Tom

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#287

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 19 Oct 2019, 17:50

Incidentally, and possibly affecting those British numbers that Zetterling uses, I found a couple of references in a British RAOC war diary which noted that the REME was changing the way it classified vehs in Returned Veh Parks.

For example,
11 September 1944
Additional recovery sections REME attached to Returned Veh Pk to remove vehs to beaches for evacuation to UK. An alteration by REME of classification caused a great deal of additional work.

[…]

12 October 1944
REME again altered classification of vehs in [16 Vehicle Company RAOC] RVP.
Regards

Tom


Yoozername
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#288

Post by Yoozername » 19 Oct 2019, 18:22

Thanks for these figures. I'd be grateful if you could provide a source for them. Do they go on into the autumn?

Regards

Tom
Please read through the thread, as the link is already in this thread.

Yoozername
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#289

Post by Yoozername » 19 Oct 2019, 18:25

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 16:54
Uh, guys? This is all fun and all to read, but if you really want to do an analysis of German tanks lost and damaged, the Italian Campaign data set for 10. AOK is more complete and extensive...and they counted unit "losses" as well as the usual three categories.

Just sayin'. Now, by all means go back to your respective rants. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good point. The Homeland Repair numbers would reflect the Eastern Front, Western Front and Italian Front.

And, it isn't about "German tanks lost and damaged", it is about the disingenuously titled 'Classification of a wreck'....

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#290

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2019, 18:44

Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 13:38
Thats all nice and well, however, they still arent burnt-out,
The Tigers exhibit the signs of extreme heat.
The exhaust cowls can suffer heat-damaged in normal use. Below the cowls are 'white' as is the RH side of the mantlet. That is heat damage to the turret.
Tigers-on-Train- (13).jpg
Here a poor quality side view showing more 'white' in the side of the same Tiger. It is certainly fire-damaged.
Tigers-on-Train- (23)fg.jpg
The Tiger below has the hatch missing from the swing arm. Normally a sign of a turret explosion. Also the suspension is wrecked. Extreme heat damage?


Tigers-on-Train-f (25)  .yh.jpg
It appears the commanders hatch is missing from this Tiger but the photo is not good enough to say with abslolute certainty.
Tigers-on-Train- (14)de.jpg
The 4th Tiger (which may be a seperate train) shows clear signs of fire. The 'white' on the hull side and again missing commanders hatch all indicate severe damage.
Attachments
Tiger Braine on train mmm.jpg

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#291

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 19 Oct 2019, 18:48

Yoozername wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 18:22
Please read through the thread, as the link is already in this thread.
Thanks, found it.

Regards

Tom

Yoozername
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#292

Post by Yoozername » 19 Oct 2019, 19:09

This example of White-Heat effect is evident...except... the rubber has not burned off?
whiteheat.jpg

Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#293

Post by Ulater » 19 Oct 2019, 19:43

Michael Kenny wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 18:44
Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 13:38
Thats all nice and well, however, they still arent burnt-out,
The Tigers exhibit the signs of extreme heat.
The exhaust cowls can suffer heat-damaged in normal use. Below the cowls are 'white' as is the RH side of the mantlet. That is heat damage to the turret.
Tigers-on-Train- (13).jpg

Here a poor quality side view showing more 'white' in the side of the same Tiger. It is certainly fire-damaged.

Tigers-on-Train- (23)fg.jpg

The Tiger below has the hatch missing from the swing arm. Normally a sign of a turret explosion. Also the suspension is wrecked. Extreme heat damage?



Tigers-on-Train-f (25) .yh.jpg

It appears the commanders hatch is missing from this Tiger but the photo is not good enough to say with abslolute certainty.

Tigers-on-Train- (14)de.jpg

The 4th Tiger (which may be a seperate train) shows clear signs of fire. The 'white' on the hull side and again missing commanders hatch all indicate severe damage.
Aha.

The "fire-damage" can be outer or inner. One photo does not mean anything.

And I do not know what " swing arms" do you see, but the hatch is there in one and you have no way of telling in the other.

Michael Kenny
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Location: Teesside

Re: Classification of a wreck

#294

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2019, 19:47

Yoozername wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 19:09
This example of White-Heat effect is evident...
Indeed it is. Evident to all.

Genuine colour photo of a burnt-out Panther and then the colour removed to show how BW film renders the bare metal 'white'. The exposed metal ('white') contrasts starkly with the parts still covered in paint/zimm.
Attachments
Screenhhhhhhh-vert.jpg
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 19 Oct 2019, 19:59, edited 3 times in total.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#295

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2019, 19:49

Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 19:43
but the hatch is there in one.
Which one? Show my error and I will correct.
Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 19:43
The "fire-damage" can be outer or inner.
Not sure what that means .
Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 19:43
One photo does not mean anything.
That is why I posted more than one photo

Ulater
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#296

Post by Ulater » 19 Oct 2019, 19:58

Image

This one.

Richard Anderson
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#297

Post by Richard Anderson » 19 Oct 2019, 20:06

Yoozername wrote: Good point. The Homeland Repair numbers would reflect the Eastern Front, Western Front and Italian Front.

And, it isn't about "German tanks lost and damaged", it is about the disingenuously titled 'Classification of a wreck'....
Oh I can read the thread title just fine and I know this really is just the typical pissing contest, but ifanyone was actually really interestedin analysis rather than urine... 🤣🤣🤣

Corrected for damned phone posting.
Last edited by Richard Anderson on 19 Oct 2019, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Michael Kenny
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Location: Teesside

Re: Classification of a wreck

#298

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2019, 20:11

Ulater wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 19:58
Image

This one.
No. The red bit you marked is not the hatch/lid. The 'arm' is sticking out to the right and possibly the hatch/lid is still on it and that is why I said it is not clear. We need a better photo

The 'arm' is the red arrows and the possible hatch/lid the yellow arrows. The Tiger in the background has the 'arm' also arrowed in red and that hatch/lid is definitely gone.
Tiger-SS102-Train (1).jpg

Michael Kenny
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Re: Classification of a wreck

#299

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2019, 20:19

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 20:06
but if anyone was actually really interested in analysis rather than urine...
I am and thus the question I started the thread with. Unfortunately it did not turn out as planned but I tried. Anyway if you (a micturation veteran of old) say it is a pointless peeing competition then I bow to your experience!.

Ulater
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Location: USA

Re: Classification of a wreck

#300

Post by Ulater » 19 Oct 2019, 20:21

Richard Anderson wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 16:54
Uh, guys? This is all fun and all to read, but if you really want to do an analysis of German tanks lost and damaged, the Italian Campaign data set for 10. AOK is more complete and extensive...and they counted unit "losses" as well as the usual three categories.

Just sayin'. Now, by all means go back to your respective rants. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Where can one obtain such information?

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