Berghof Obersalzberg

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Alvin Y.
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Alvin Y. » 31 Oct 2019 08:16

CPB wrote:
30 Oct 2019 10:28
Great links, thanks for posting.

A couple of summers back, I was lucky enough to see in person the original 'Goering Art Collection' poster that still exists in a collection in the States. Absolutely incredible. The owner re-visited the building it hung from all those years ago and, incredibly, the hooks that once held it are still there.
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That's cool 8-) ... Have you taken pictures of the signboard?
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Regards,
Alvin

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 01 Nov 2019 00:51

Siegener Nachkomme wrote:
28 Oct 2019 03:02
I recently found this early post-war US Army film on YouTube entitled "Bavarian Holiday" that promotes the recreation center at Königssee. I thought certain footage within in would contribute to this thread on the Berghof and Obersalzberg. (The Obersalzberg sites begin around 13:38.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSJoaFzfX8Ym

The film was uploaded to YouTube by travelfimarchive, which offers licensed footage from the film for commercial use at there website: www.travelfilmarchive.com

While the uploader gives a date of 1950, I believe it was filmed no later that spring 1947 due to the presence of Third Army soldiers featured in the film. (I believe the Third Army departed for the States in March 1947.) Of course, the Army may have released this film after that date.

Enjoy!
Matt
Welcome to AHF, mein Freund!
:welcome:

My friend Matt and I had discussed this video before he posted this. It's a quite remarkable early postwar look at what would become the Berchtesgaden Recreation Center, then the American Forces Recreation Center, which operated until 1995.

Although the Travelfilmarchive dates this to the 1950s, Matt and I agree that it is earlier. I think it likely was filmed in 1946, or maybe even late 1945. (Travelfilmarchive also claims copyright ownership, that's absurd, as all media produced by/for the US military is in the public domain).

I have tried to find the history of the 489th AAA (unit marked on the truck), but I have not found their immediate postwar location. They served in the US 4th Infantry Division during the war, and by 1950 they were back in the States as a reserve unit in Kansas. Most active duty units that had served during the war did not hang around in Europe for long after the summer of 1945. In addition, the wearing of helmet liners by most of the soldiers would seem to mark this as soon after the war ended (in my father's photos from late 1945 into mid 1946, no-one is seen wearing any head gear but a soft cap).

The soldiers were billeted at the Hotel Schiffmeister, which is still there at the Koenigssee lake shore. They sure lived like kings (as they deserved!) – we weren't treated quite so well when I visited AFRC-Berchtesgaden as a soldier in 1981. I wondered what their destination would be on the Koenigssee boat ride, when they went past St. Bartholomae, and sure enough, they ended up at the Obersee, walking right past one of the "Hitler rocks" (although I'm sure they didn't realize the significance).

http://thirdreichruins.com/miscbldgs3.h ... seeobersee

I also found it interesting that the boat pilot played a horn at the "Echo Wall," instead of shooting the traditional pistol. Could it be that the U.S. occupation in 1945 is what put an end to the pistol shooting (which gave seven echoes) and brought in the horn playing (which only gives three or four echoes)?

The Koeningssee waterfall mentioned is the Koenigsbach Fall, where Eva Braun and family liked to bathe (also shown on the page at the link above).

Check out the surplus Wehrmacht wood-burining truck, complete with camouflage paint, at 04:40.

While they were at the Obersalzberg ruins, the state of the roof on the Kindergarten building also argues for an early postwar date, as this roofing was largely gone in photos taken in 1947 and later. (15:06)

I wonder what became of that big 3D terrain map of the Obersalzberg that they were shown in the Platterhof Hotel (which obviously had not yet been turned into the General Walker Hotel) … (13:50) I've seen 1945 photos of it, but nothing since.

Wonder why they didn't go up the mountain to the Kehlsteinhaus? Too much snow when this was filmed, or not on their tour itinerary … who knows.

I think also that this film was probably shot at different times. The Almabtrieb (return of the cattle from the high pastures) takes place in September, but many of the mountain scenes show far too much snow for September, more like early-mid May. And scenes not shot at the same location were later spliced together for this production – at the end, right before the soldier steps out onto his balcony of the Hotel Schiffmeister at Koenigssee, there is a quick shot of the Hotel Bavaria in Berchtesgaden itself – not the same place. (17:02)

In all, a thoroughly interesting film! (and a lengthy analysis, I know!) :milwink:
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
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Alvin Y.
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Alvin Y. » 01 Nov 2019 18:22

.
Hello Geoff & Matt,
.
thank you very much for this very interesting footage and the exceeding analysis. It's always amazing how much knowledge the members of
AXIS Forum have. Great 8-) ....

But now back to the contribution:
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Königssee and Echo-Wall:
The last time a gun or firecracker were used in the year 1934. The local administration forbade this procedure and since 1935 the traditional Flügelhorn has been used, see attached picture (source Wikipedia). Im my opinion a good choice because that's much more authentic for Bavaria.

Note: In the year 2008, the 'Echo-Tradition' was not part of the boat tour because the boatsmen refused to blow the Horn. The reason for that was strange. The 'Officials‘ rated the payment of tips as a coercion of guests. Of course, this curios decision was reversed quickly. Personally, I find the Echo-Wall is a nice addition while the boat trip and the last time we heard the echo very clear ...
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The much more important tradition of the ‘Berchtesgadener-Land‘ is the ‘Christmas and New Year's Eve shooting‘.

Please read that article now.
https://www.berchtesgaden.de/en/folk-tr ... e-shooters

... you’re back, so let’s go further ...

Here is a short footage which shows the ‘Weihnachtsschützen of Berchtesgaden‘ in Schönau near Königssee. You can see them ‘in action‘ from the minute 2:45. I think that footage is a very good example for giving an impression what they are talking about in the article.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKsFVVdjyHs
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And now the correlation to the Berghof and Obersalzberg:

The ‘New Year's Eve shooting‘ was also an annual event at the Berghof. The 'Weihnachtsschützen of Berchtesgaden' went up the Obersalzberg to the slope in front of the Berghof and Hitler with his guests enjoyed this spectacle on the Berghof-Terrace. That was the way how Hitler and his entourage celebrated the new year round about midnight.

You can find an issue-related picture on the webpage of the ‘Bayrische Staatsbibliothek‘. Please search for 50051827
https://www.bpk-bildagentur.de/shop (if you need/want, select English as language at the top/right).

That picture has been taken from Heinrich Hoffmann on December 31, 1937.

Okay, as mentioned the Weihnachtsschützen went up to the Berghof area and saluted the new year [..] . After the fireworks they came (directly) to the Berghof. Hitler talked to them and congratulated for the new year. Maybe they also got a class of champaigne or a beer, who knows?

That's a page which illustrates the event of December 31, 1938:
http://www.hitler-archive.com/photo.php?p=bJ21sDA8

More pictures and comments of the New Year's Eve-shooting are available in these books:

1. "Obersalzberg - Brennpunkt der Geschichte" / page 155.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3784420478

2. "The Obersalzberg and the Third Reich" / page 39. A fantastic picture which was used for postcards.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3922590136
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Well, these are just examples. Most likely you can find pictures, information, comments in many other books or webpages.
Note: The 'Bayrische Staatsbibliothek' offers an awesome collection of pictures about the Third Reich. Please take the search Obersalzberg.
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Regards,
Avlin
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PS: Please excuse, but I won’t share any pictures of the New Year's Eve shooting cause of Copyright.
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JonFish
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by JonFish » 01 Nov 2019 22:08

I was there yesterday, some snow up high and on Jenner, but warm at daytime. Love visiting here, always.
Collector of Blood Orders , Blutorden, and associated items.

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Max
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 02 Nov 2019 03:17

Geoff Walden wrote:
01 Nov 2019 00:51

…….. the wearing of helmet liners by most of the soldiers would seem to mark this as soon after the war ended (in my father's photos from late 1945 into mid 1946, no-one is seen wearing any head gear but a soft cap).
Thanks for the great commentary Geoff but can you tell me about the helmet liners.
You will pardon my ignorance but I took them to be actual helmets. Is there more to the lining that just the webbing? Why did they wear just the lining?
- for warmth?
No doubt that this is very basic stuff, but I'm confused.
Cheers
Max
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by G.K. » 02 Nov 2019 13:24

hello, have you ever tried to build a chair like the one on the terrace of the Berghof? I would like to try to build it. If it works, I will build several chairs and then sell them. :D
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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 02 Nov 2019 15:25

Max wrote:
02 Nov 2019 03:17
Geoff Walden wrote:
01 Nov 2019 00:51
…….. the wearing of helmet liners by most of the soldiers would seem to mark this as soon after the war ended (in my father's photos from late 1945 into mid 1946, no-one is seen wearing any head gear but a soft cap).
Thanks for the great commentary Geoff but can you tell me about the helmet liners.
You will pardon my ignorance but I took them to be actual helmets. Is there more to the lining that just the webbing? Why did they wear just the lining?
- for warmth?
No doubt that this is very basic stuff, but I'm confused.
Cheers
Max
Hi Max,
The quality of the video doesn't allow me to be certain, but since those soldiers were no longer in a war zone, I think they were only wearing the helmet liners. That style of helmet is actually 2-piece, as opposed to modern US Army-style kevlar helmets. The WW2 helmet had a thin lightweight liner made of a composition material like fiberglass. This part had the webbing and a narrow chinstrap. The metal part just fit down over this, with a thicker chinstrap. When worn together, the liner chinstrap was often worn across the brim of the metal helmet, with the bigger helmet chinstrap worn across the back of the helmet. From photos, it doesn't seem that a lot of soldiers actually used these straps as chinstraps.
Unless the soldiers were actually getting shot at, they often wore just the liner, because it was a lot lighter for wear (that old "steel pot" was heavy enough to make one's head wobble around after awhile!). The liner became a normal part of the uniform when not in actual combat (my father brought home his helmet liner, but not his actual helmet).
I'm sure an expert on US WW2 helmets can chime in with more info (I'm only speaking from personal experience with the Cold War "steel pot" and the details of the helmet liner my father brought back from Germany in 1946).
Geoff
Last edited by Geoff Walden on 02 Nov 2019 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 02 Nov 2019 16:48

I went back and watched this again, concentrating on the headgear. I saw lots of evidence that these were the helmet liners (rivets on the side that held the webbing suspension system on the inside of the liner, shiny plastic-looking material), and no clear evidence that any of these were the actual metal helmet part.
Anyone who wants more info on the construction of the US M1 helmet can check out the Wikipedia article.
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Annelie » 02 Nov 2019 18:00

And Geoff, perhaps they could inquire with the helmet collectors
on this forum?

nammie44
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by nammie44 » 03 Nov 2019 17:24

It's amazing on how one angry man caused so much death and destruction. So many beautiful German cites and buildings were destroyed by Allied bombing raids. Hope it doesn't happen again.

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Max
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 04 Nov 2019 21:26

Geoff Walden wrote:
02 Nov 2019 16:48

Anyone who wants more info on the construction of the US M1 helmet can check out the Wikipedia article.
Thanks for your observations and the link Geoff.
It's funny how you can have a life long idea about something, only to realise you had it wrong all along. :oops:

Cheers
Max
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by tunix0 » 05 Nov 2019 09:16

Hi!

I was at the Technik Museum Sinsheim this weekend. In the museum a few original Mercedes vehicles are exhibited, as they drove on the Obersalzberg.

Maybe you are interested in photos. These are really impressive and beautiful vehicles.

Mercedes Benz "Nürburg", 1932, 110PS, 4.918ccm, 8-Zyl:
Mercedes_Benz_Nuerburg_Cabrio_1.jpg
Mercedes_Benz_Nuerburg_Cabrio_2.jpg
Mercedes_Benz_Nuerburg_Cabrio_3.jpg

Mercedes Benz W150/770k "Armored Cabrio", 1938, 230PS, 7.600ccm, 8-Zyl:
Mercedes_Benz_W150_770k_Panzer_1.jpg
Mercedes_Benz_W150_770k_Panzer_2.jpg
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tunix0
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by tunix0 » 05 Nov 2019 09:19

And here are two more vehicles:

Mercedes Benz W150/770k "Armored Limousine", 1943, 230PS, 7.600ccm, 8-Zyl (It was used by Himmler and found at the end of the war at Obersalzberg):
Mercedes_Benz_W150_770k_Himmler_1.jpg
Mercedes_Benz_W150_770k_Himmler_2.jpg

Mercedes Benz "G4", 1938, 110PS, 5.400ccm, 8-Zyl:
Mercedes_Benz_G4_1.jpg
Mercedes_Benz_G4_2.jpg

A copy of a bill for a Mercedes Benz "Grosser Mercedes" for Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler:
Mercedes_Benz_Rechnung_770k_1.jpg

Regards
Christian
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CPB
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by CPB » 05 Nov 2019 11:11

Great photos, very cool to see these cars. Anyone interested in these should read this book....it's excellent.
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Biber
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Biber » 05 Nov 2019 14:18

Yes it is a good book, very engaging and an easy (and very interesting) read.

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