At what point did Germany lose WW2?

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
Post Reply
ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1351

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2019, 08:13

Britain did not need the BEF to prevent a German landing : it had the RAF,the RN, the Home Forces, the Channel,each of these were sufficient to prevent a landing .

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4506
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1352

Post by Aida1 » 04 Nov 2019, 11:05

ljadw wrote:
03 Nov 2019, 22:46
Halder said in November 1940 that an attack against Moscow starting from Smolensk had no chances to succeed .
Halder wanted the attack towards Moscow in august 1941 as you know very well.


ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1353

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2019, 12:28

As you know very well ,he said in November that an attack against Moscow starting from Smolensk had no chances to succeed .

Max Payload
Member
Posts: 574
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 15:37

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1354

Post by Max Payload » 04 Nov 2019, 13:54

Aida1 wrote:
03 Nov 2019, 17:07
How strange then that all German commanders wanted to go for Moscow when that supposedly was impossible They would have known if that were the case.
Without the benefit of hindsight, no they would not. At the time they could could only make a judgement based on the information available to them together with their respective suppositions about the political and military resilience of the Soviet regime.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4506
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1355

Post by Aida1 » 04 Nov 2019, 16:22

ljadw wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 12:28
As you know very well ,he said in November that an attack against Moscow starting from Smolensk had no chances to succeed .
Repeating it does not make it less nonsense.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1356

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2019, 16:50

You are now saying that what Halder said in November 1940 was nonsense ?
You forget that this ''nonsense '' was the foundation of the Barbarossa Plan .

HistoryGeek2019
Member
Posts: 399
Joined: 06 Aug 2019, 04:55
Location: America

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1357

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 04 Nov 2019, 19:39

German generals were oblivious to logistical constraints and were trained to attack, attack, attack. Withdrawing was tantamount to admitting defeat, and they couldn't stay where they were because they were being beaten by the superior Red Army in August 1941. And Moscow seemed like a shiny object that supposedly would end all resistance if captured (this had been advocated in the First World War as well when the Bolsheviks were inciting resistance in German occupied territories under Brest-Litovsk). So of course the generals would say "Attack toward Moscow, our superior German soldiers will prevail!"

HistoryGeek2019
Member
Posts: 399
Joined: 06 Aug 2019, 04:55
Location: America

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1358

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 04 Nov 2019, 19:44

The German generals were also clinging to the delusion that the war could be ended in 1941, long after it had become clear that the Russians couldn't be beaten in a quick war. Moscow offered the illusory promise of ending the war then and there, whereas striking toward Kiev was tantamount to admitting that the war would go on for years. Thus, Hitler had a better grasp on reality than his generals in 1941.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1359

Post by ljadw » 04 Nov 2019, 20:36

The preparations of Blau started already before the Soviet winteroffensive .

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4506
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1360

Post by Aida1 » 05 Nov 2019, 17:20

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 19:44
The German generals were also clinging to the delusion that the war could be ended in 1941, long after it had become clear that the Russians couldn't be beaten in a quick war. Moscow offered the illusory promise of ending the war then and there, whereas striking toward Kiev was tantamount to admitting that the war would go on for years. Thus, Hitler had a better grasp on reality than his generals in 1941.
There were sound strategic reasons to want to end the war quickly and the way to do that was going towards Moscow. Kiev would always fall later if the red army was beaten in front of AGC. Hitler certainly also wanted to win in 1941.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4506
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1361

Post by Aida1 » 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 19:39
German generals were oblivious to logistical constraints and were trained to attack, attack, attack. Withdrawing was tantamount to admitting defeat, and they couldn't stay where they were because they were being beaten by the superior Red Army in August 1941. And Moscow seemed like a shiny object that supposedly would end all resistance if captured (this had been advocated in the First World War as well when the Bolsheviks were inciting resistance in German occupied territories under Brest-Litovsk). So of course the generals would say "Attack toward Moscow, our superior German soldiers will prevail!"
Very simplistic. If the German army was beaten in august, it is very strange that it obtained the successes it did in september and october.

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 4506
Joined: 04 Aug 2019, 09:46
Location: Brussels

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1362

Post by Aida1 » 05 Nov 2019, 17:22

ljadw wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 16:50
You are now saying that what Halder said in November 1940 was nonsense ?
You forget that this ''nonsense '' was the foundation of the Barbarossa Plan .
It was certainly not.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1363

Post by ljadw » 05 Nov 2019, 18:15

Aida1 wrote:
05 Nov 2019, 17:22
HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 19:39
German generals were oblivious to logistical constraints and were trained to attack, attack, attack. Withdrawing was tantamount to admitting defeat, and they couldn't stay where they were because they were being beaten by the superior Red Army in August 1941. And Moscow seemed like a shiny object that supposedly would end all resistance if captured (this had been advocated in the First World War as well when the Bolsheviks were inciting resistance in German occupied territories under Brest-Litovsk). So of course the generals would say "Attack toward Moscow, our superior German soldiers will prevail!"
Very simplistic. If the German army was beaten in august, it is very strange that it obtained the successes it did in september and october.
Successes which resulted in failure .

Paul Lakowski
Member
Posts: 1441
Joined: 30 Apr 2003, 06:16
Location: Canada

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1364

Post by Paul Lakowski » 05 Nov 2019, 21:28

ljadw wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 08:13
Britain did not need the BEF to prevent a German landing : it had the RAF,the RN, the Home Forces, the Channel,each of these were sufficient to prevent a landing .
Delusional thinking that would NEVER have been tolerated in our time.

No wonder you twits always end up in unwinnable wars. :roll:

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15588
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: At what point did Germany lose WW2?

#1365

Post by ljadw » 05 Nov 2019, 22:10

HomeForces : 1.3 million .
Canadians : 27000
Number of Germans that could land the first day : a few thousand . If they could .
Result : Britain 1-Germany 0.
End game .

Post Reply

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”