Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

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ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 16:31

Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan .
And that Japanese soldiers preferred suicide to surrender has nothing to do with the reason why Japan started the war and why Japanese soldiers were fighting . They fought because they were called up,they did not volunteer as happened in Britain in 1914 .

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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 17:32

They went to war because they couldn't consider any other option. The Japanese have a penchant for ignoring things that are insoluble. "How do we defeat the US in a long war" is a classic example.
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 17:34

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How so?
And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan.
Tojo didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 20:13

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan .
And that Japanese soldiers preferred suicide to surrender has nothing to do with the reason why Japan started the war and why Japanese soldiers were fighting . They fought because they were called up,they did not volunteer as happened in Britain in 1914 .
Oh ljadw, you are such a kidder.

Fallacy,

Japan had to defeat the US or else all was for nought.

Tojo did not attack Pearl Harbor, that was wholly Yamamoto's doing.

In essence,the Japanese military junta attacked the US, because giving in to US demands would have caused them to lose honor, and they would be tossed out. That being said, Pearl Harbor was attacked because it was a threat, not to make Japan a world power. If Pearl had not been a threat, it would not have been attacked.

Japanese troops could have surrendered and not fought, but they didn"t....

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 20:35

To win US troops had to parade in front of the Imperial Palace, Japan did not need to parade at the Pennsylvania Avenue to win .
Japanese military attacked US because otherwise Japan would not become a world power and they would lose face : prestige is not the same as honor .
The Japanese military had no honor, they were not honorable men .

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 20:37

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How so?
And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan.
Tojo didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
Tojo was responsible for the attack : Yamamoto could not attack PH without the consent/order from Tojo .

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 20:44

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How?
Japan was in the situation of the South in 1861 : the South was not forced to defeat the North,the North was obliged to defeat the South . For the South,it was sufficient to repeal northern attacks long time enough til the North gave up .To defeat the South,the North had to invade the South and to occupy it . The South was not obliged to invade the North .
Japan was not obliged to invade California, US were forced to invade Okinawa .

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 20:54

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:37
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How so?
And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan.
Tojo didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
Tojo was responsible for the attack : Yamamoto could not attack PH without the consent/order from Tojo .
The IJN HQ demanded the attack on Pearl and Tojo caved. He didn't like it, but to get the support of the Navy for the move into the Southern Resources Area he went along with it.
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OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 20:54

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:44
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How?
Japan was in the situation of the South in 1861 : the South was not forced to defeat the North,the North was obliged to defeat the South . For the South,it was sufficient to repeal northern attacks long time enough til the North gave up .To defeat the South,the North had to invade the South and to occupy it . The South was not obliged to invade the North .
Japan was not obliged to invade California, US were forced to invade Okinawa .
That made no sense at all.
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ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 21:47

Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 21:50

OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:54
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:37
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How so?
And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan.
Tojo didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
Tojo was responsible for the attack : Yamamoto could not attack PH without the consent/order from Tojo .
The IJN HQ demanded the attack on Pearl and Tojo caved. He didn't like it, but to get the support of the Navy for the move into the Southern Resources Area he went along with it.
The Move into the Southern Resources Area was not possible without the attack on PH and the invasion of the PI.Both were inseparable .The attack on PH was senseless without the move to the South .

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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 22:39

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:44

Japan was in the situation of the South in 1861 : the South was not forced to defeat the North,the North was obliged to defeat the South . For the South,it was sufficient to repeal northern attacks long time enough til the North gave up .To defeat the South,the North had to invade the South and to occupy it . The South was not obliged to invade the North .
Japan was not obliged to invade California, US were forced to invade Okinawa .
Fallacy.

Fighting defensive battles in the South only crippled the South. Lee knew this. To win, the South had to go North and take the battles there, which Lee did twice in 1862 & 1863. However, he was defeated both times.

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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 22:44

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:50
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:54
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 20:37
OpanaPointer wrote:
08 Nov 2019 17:34
ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 16:31
Fallacy : Japan had not to defeat the USA,but USA had to defeat Japan .
How so?
And Tojo did not attack PH because this was something the Bushido Code forced him to do ,but because it was the only way to make a world power of Japan.
Tojo didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
Tojo was responsible for the attack : Yamamoto could not attack PH without the consent/order from Tojo .
The IJN HQ demanded the attack on Pearl and Tojo caved. He didn't like it, but to get the support of the Navy for the move into the Southern Resources Area he went along with it.
The Move into the Southern Resources Area was not possible without the attack on PH and the invasion of the PI.Both were inseparable .The attack on PH was senseless without the move to the South .
Fallacy.

The move into the Southern Resources Area was entirely possible without PH. The IJN's entire strategy for fighting a Pacific War, since the early 1900's never included such an attack on PH. Only in 1940 did Yamamoto throw the playbook out the window.

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 22:47

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
We didn't invade Japanese territory, and we won.
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Takao
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 22:48

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 21:47
Why ?
To win US had to invade Japanese territory, Japan did not need to invade US territory to win .
Japan invaded the Philippines & Aleutians, both US territories and still lost. Japan needed to invade CONUS to win.

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