Anschluss

Discussions on every day life in the Weimar Republic, pre-anschluss Austria, Third Reich and the occupied territories. Hosted by Vikki.
uhu
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Re: Anschluss

Post by uhu » 03 Jul 2019 19:45

Even old William Shirer had this to say about the Rape of Austriia. "If that was rape I've never seen a more willing victim."

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Jul 2019 10:33

Hi Steve,

Hitler invaded precisely because he feared Schussnigg might win his referendum. The passing of the bit about "independent" would be a propaganda obstacle to any future effort by Hitler to achieve Anschluss.

Schussnigg's plebiscite was cleverly worded and would be difficult for any Austrian to vote against once in the voting booth.

Think of the opposite to his proposed question. What Austrian, (even a Nazi) could prefer an "unfree and non-German, enslaved and anti-social, unchristian and divided Austria: conflict and unemployment, inequality...…."

The crowds that greeted the German troops were self-selecting. (i.e. they were those who already supported Anschluss with Germany). They were not representative of the entire population. Even in Linz, which was the hometown of Hitler's youth, only 40% of the population are claimed to have turned out. In Vienna, which was much more left wing, it was about 17%. It is these 40% and 17% who are in the photos, not the 60% and 87% who stayed away.

That is why the photos should not be taken as necessarily representing majority Austrian opinion.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Anyone wishing to rehearse the facts about Austrian public opinion might consult: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=plebiscite
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 04 Jul 2019 10:56, edited 2 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Jul 2019 10:34

Double post

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2019 11:16

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Jul 2019 10:33
Hi Steve,

Hitler invaded precisely because he feared Schussnigg might win his referendum. The passing of the bit about "independent" would be a propaganda obstacle to any future effort by Hitler to achieve Anschluss.

Schussnigg's plebiscite was cleverly worded and would be difficult for any Austrian to vote against once in the voting booth.

Think of the opposite to his proposed question. What Austrian, (even a Nazi) could prefer an "unfree and non-German, enslaved and anti-social, unchristian and divided Austria: conflict and unemployment, inequality...…."

The crowds that greeted the German troops were self-selecting. (i.e. they were those who already supported Anschluss with Germany). They were not representative of the entire population. Even in Linz, which was the hometown of Hitler's youth, only 40% of the population are claimed to have turned out. In Vienna, which was much more left wing, it was about 17%. It is these 40% and 17% who are in the photos, not the 60% and 87% who stayed away.

That is why the photos should not be taken as necessarily representing majority Austrian opinion.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Anyone wishing to rehearse the facts about Austrian public opinion might consult: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=plebiscite
And when were they saying that they went out to see Hitler ? After the Anschluss? Or after the war ? :wink:

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2019 11:25

uhu wrote:
03 Jul 2019 19:45
Even old William Shirer had this to say about the Rape of Austriia. "If that was rape I've never seen a more willing victim."
For once, he said something intelligent in his life .
He was in Vienna at the moment of the Anschluss,journalists remain normally in a capital, where life is more luxurious . 8-)

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2019 11:40

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Jul 2019 10:33
Hi Steve,



Schussnigg's plebiscite was cleverly worded and would be difficult for any Austrian to vote against once in the voting booth.

Think of the opposite to his proposed question. What Austrian, (even a Nazi) could prefer an "unfree and non-German, enslaved and anti-social, unchristian and divided Austria: conflict and unemployment, inequality...…."



That is why the photos should not be taken as necessarily representing majority Austrian opinion.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Anyone wishing to rehearse the facts about Austrian public opinion might consult: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=231738&hilit=plebiscite
Austrians were clever enough to know that the words of a dictator ( Schussnigg was one do ) not translate his opinion/intention and people had already made their decision .Schussnigg imposed the referendum because he was in trouble, and people are as rats : they do not enter a sinking ship, but leave it .
Other point :
if the photos can not be taken as representing the Austrian opinion, the fact that 83 % of the inhabitants of Vienna claimed not to be present, does not prove that 83 % of them was against the Anschluss . A lot of them could not be present as their wife was still
tailoring their new brown uniform and was brushing their boots, while they were busy burning their member cards of the SPÖ,ÖVP and their ancestry papers,to hide that there had been a grand-grand-father with a Jewish mother .

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2019 12:08

Sid Guttridge wrote:
04 Jul 2019 10:33
Hi Steve,



Think of the opposite to his proposed question. What Austrian, (even a Nazi) could prefer an "unfree and non-German, enslaved and anti-social, unchristian and divided Austria: conflict and unemployment, inequality...…."



Cheers,

Sid.

The choice was between the dictator Schussnigg and to live in an independent Austria,without any hope to have a job and the dictator Hitler living in Great Germany and having a job .
other points : if Schussnigg promised a German Austria, he promised the Anschluss: thus ..? People prefer the original to the copy
: a social Austria meant the Anschluss because socially Austria was lagging behind Germany .
: for a lot of people (especially in Vienna ) a christian Austria meant an Austria ruled by the church, something they disliked .
: a lot of Austrians did not care about freedom and the step from Marx to Hitler was made very quickly .
: Hitler was successful, Schussnigg had failed . Who would support a loser ?

ljadw
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Re: Anschluss

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2019 14:31

Steve wrote:
02 Jul 2019 16:09
Hi, very interesting pictures but do they reflect reality? Austria had since 1933 been effectively a one party right wing state hence very difficult to gauge public opinion. The general consensus in writings about the Anschluss is that Hitler invaded when he did because Austrian chancellor Schuschnigg was going to hold a referendum on union with Germany. The Nazis had doubts about winning such a referendum so Hitler moved to stop it, but is it as simple as that?

Schuschnigg had met Hitler on February 9 and been bullied into accepting an agreement that would have eventually seen Austria unifying with Germany. Later Hitler issued a directive to the Austrian Nazi party that he wanted to “go down the evolutionary way”. Though there had been no mention of a referendum at the February meeting Schuschnigg later decided to call one on a question and in circumstances that made it highly unlikely he could lose. The question would be according to historian Ian Kershaw in his book Hitler 1936 – 1945 whether Austria wanted “a free and German, independent and social, Christian and united Austria; for peace and work, and for the equal rights of all who declare themselves for people and fatherland”. No mention of union with Germany. In addition according to the Wikipedia article on Anschluss Schuschnigg was going to lift a ban on opposition parties if they would vote in favour and ban voters under 24 as these were most likely to vote Nazi. Presumably if Schuschnigg had won he would have said that “independent and social” meant Austrians did not want a union. Not surprisingly Hitler went into a rage threw the February agreement into the bin and invaded.

As Schuschnigg did not want to put a clear question to the electorate and wanted to limit the number of voters he probably thought he could not win on a simple yes no. Even if the photos of cheering crowds are not a true reflection I doubt they are far off.
German meant : not independent and not free
social meant : not independent but German
christian meant : not united
peace meant : not German
work meant : not independent .

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Steve
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Steve » 04 Jul 2019 23:23

Hi, it’s all guesstimates and I would not place a bet on either side, however to play the devils advocate. Uhu quotes William Shirer who was a savvy commentator and was there. Schuschnigg was clearly not playing fair with his referendum proposal so you would assume he was worried about losing an honest referendum. Assuming the figure of 17% is right for Vienna then about 325,000 people turned out for Hitler. In present day London17% would translate to about 1,360,000 people. If Boris Johnson wins the contest to be Prime Minister and on his return to London is greeted by a cheering crowd of 1,360,000 people you would think he was very popular.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jul 2019 11:35

Hi Steve,

You are right not to put a bet on either side, though my inclination is to think that a free and fair plebiscite would, at the time, have resulted in a preference for Anschluss - Just nowhere near the ridiculous 99% the Nazis claimed for their own referendum. At other times, such as after the assassination of Dolfuss in 1934, it would probably have failed.

Shirer was there, but watching the enthusiasm of the minority who did turn out to support the invasion.

Certainly Schussnigg was not playing fair, but neither did Hitler on a far larger scale.

If Hitler was so confident of Austrian public opinion, why did he feel it necessary to so massively rig his own referendum?

The fact is that we cannot be entirely certain of where Austrian public opinion lay at the time, because it was never freely and fairly consulted by anyone.

That is why the photos of cheering minority crowds cannot be taken as evidence of where majority public opinion lay.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Certainly, "If Boris Johnson wins the contest to be Prime Minister and on his return to London is greeted by a cheering crowd of 1,360,000 people you would think he was very popular" but only among the self-selecting minority with whom he was already very popular. What about the other 7,000,000?

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tigre
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Re: Anschluss

Post by tigre » 16 Jul 2019 01:02

Hello to all :D; more...............................................

Deutschland - Österreich, ein Volk - ein Reich.

Sources: http://www.aboutww2militaria.com/hitler ... scite.html

Cheers. Raúl M 8-)
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tigre
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Re: Anschluss

Post by tigre » 02 Nov 2019 23:25

Hello to all :D; more...............................................

First days of Austria within III. Reich.

Source: http://www.aboutww2militaria.com/first- ... chter.html

Cheers. Raúl M 8-)
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tigre
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Re: Anschluss

Post by tigre » 20 Dec 2019 04:29

Hello to all :D; more...............................................

Deutschland - Österreich, ein Volk - ein Reich. Gebirgstruppen!

Sources: Hitler in seine Heimat. heinrich hoffmann

Cheers. Raúl M 8-)

Feliz Navidad - Feliz Natal - Frohe Weihnachten - Joyeux Noël - Merry Christmas - Wesołych Świąt!. :P
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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Anschluss

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Dec 2019 12:47

Hi Tigre,

If you follow your link through, you will find some of those photos are originally from Illustrierter Beobachter, the Nazi Party's weekly illustrated newspaper.

They will necessarily only show one side of the story. Even in Linz, which was the hometown of Hitler's youth, only 40% of the population are claimed to have turned out. In Vienna, which was much more left wing, it was about 17%. It is these 40% and 17% who are in the photos, not the 60% and 87% who stayed away. Photos of cheering minority crowds cannot be taken as evidence of where majority public opinion lay.

The Anschluss was a massive propaganda triumph for Germany. Reproducing Nazi-sourced photos (which, necessarily are almost the only ones available), without providing a critical explanatory text with them simply perpetuates Goebbels's propaganda work for him 75 years after his suicide.

Cheers,

Sid.

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tigre
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Re: Anschluss

Post by tigre » 21 Dec 2019 13:14

Hello Sid, are saying that I support the Nazi ideology? .... well, sure is not so ... and I think that nobody in this forum does. This is a historical fact and it happened .......... I also don't say that the German or Austrian people are or supported it. But keep in mind that it is simply difficult to analyze past events with ideas from the 21st century. No propaganda at all just historical photos. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

PS: the propaganda works only if you believe in it......

Merry Christmas - Merry Natal - Frohe Weihnachten - Joyeux Noël - Merry Christmas - Wesołych Świąt!. :P

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