Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
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Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Some figures for sPz Abt 502 for June-July 1944 giving detailed lists of kill claims and ammo expenditure.
Taken from Otto Carius, 'Tiger In The Mud'.
June 24-30 The above is an extremely high number of rounds fired v kill claims.
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July 4-27
Taken from Otto Carius, 'Tiger In The Mud'.
June 24-30 The above is an extremely high number of rounds fired v kill claims.
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July 4-27
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
To be correct, it says 'Material losses'. Unless you have some other data that says otherwise, this can easily be taken as the lost ammunition in the total write-offs, abandoned, or destroyed in trucks/dumps.The above is an extremely high number of rounds fired v kill claims.
The other report uses the word 'Consumption'.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
No one would ever believe the Tiger expended 40 rounds per claimed kill-if we did not have the data that shows it did!Yoozername wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 18:38To be correct, it says 'Material losses'. Unless you have some other data that says otherwise, this can easily be taken as the lost ammunition in the total write-offs, abandoned, or destroyed in trucks/dumps.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Glad you like your own specious logic. Reading is fundamental.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 19:32No one would ever believe the Tiger expended 40 rounds per claimed kill-if we did not have the data that shows it did!Yoozername wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 18:38To be correct, it says 'Material losses'. Unless you have some other data that says otherwise, this can easily be taken as the lost ammunition in the total write-offs, abandoned, or destroyed in trucks/dumps.
Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
In addition to other causes of ammunition consumption besides rounds fired, according to "Der Munitionsverbrauch der deutschen Wehrmacht im Feldzug gegen Sowjetrußland 1941 bis 1945" by Major dG Gerhard Donat in "ASMZ : Sicherheit Schweiz : Allgemeine schweizerische Militärzeitschrift, 2/1964, p.89" the troops were prone to cook the books in the hope of increasing their chances to get enough ammunition supply:
"Den Munitionsverbrauch bis auf den letzten Schuß festzustellen, ist bei der Größe der Kampfhandlungen im Osten 1941 bis 1945 nicht möglich. Die Truppe, die im harten Kampf mit dem Feind steht, hat nartürlich nicht die Möglichkeit, jeden einzelnen Schuß zu regis-trieren, der die Mündung verläßt. Auch Munitionsverluste werden unter "Verschuß" als Verbrauch gemeldet. Schließlich ist der begreifliche Drang der Truppe, immer über eine ausreichende Munitionsmenge zu verfügen, besonders bei sogenannter Mangelmunition, der Grund für manchmal etwa veränderte (frisierte) Munitionsverschußmeldungen gewesen. General Toppe, als wohl zuständigster Fachmann, bezeichnet die daraus sich eventuell ergebenden Fehlerquellen aus der Erfahrung mit "bis zu 10%". Die ordnungsgemäß gemeldeten Munitionsverluste, durch Kampfverlauf oder Feindeinwirkung hervorgerufen, sind dabei nicht inbegriffen."
Markus
"Den Munitionsverbrauch bis auf den letzten Schuß festzustellen, ist bei der Größe der Kampfhandlungen im Osten 1941 bis 1945 nicht möglich. Die Truppe, die im harten Kampf mit dem Feind steht, hat nartürlich nicht die Möglichkeit, jeden einzelnen Schuß zu regis-trieren, der die Mündung verläßt. Auch Munitionsverluste werden unter "Verschuß" als Verbrauch gemeldet. Schließlich ist der begreifliche Drang der Truppe, immer über eine ausreichende Munitionsmenge zu verfügen, besonders bei sogenannter Mangelmunition, der Grund für manchmal etwa veränderte (frisierte) Munitionsverschußmeldungen gewesen. General Toppe, als wohl zuständigster Fachmann, bezeichnet die daraus sich eventuell ergebenden Fehlerquellen aus der Erfahrung mit "bis zu 10%". Die ordnungsgemäß gemeldeten Munitionsverluste, durch Kampfverlauf oder Feindeinwirkung hervorgerufen, sind dabei nicht inbegriffen."
Markus
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
So there could be a 10% error. OK make that 36 rounds (not 40) per claimed kill in the example from sPz Abt 502..
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Another reality MK is not taking into consideration, firing at a target might just inconveniently have them move off before the registration of a hit even. Especially at long range. Likewise, not being toys or Tamiya models, a target getting hit might also decide to put it in reverse and jink about to frustrate a gunner.
AP was also fired at ATG and bunkers.
AP was also fired at ATG and bunkers.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
More. 10% refers only to reported vs actual consumption. However, the loss of ammunition due to abandoncy, enemy action or movement was explicitly not included in the 10% but was included in the reported ammunition consumption.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 23:10So there could be a 10% error. OK make that 36 rounds (not 40) per claimed kill in the example from sPz Abt 502..
I suppose one could create a hypothesis test using officially reported consumption features between offensive (territory held) and defensive (territory given up). If that statement was true, there should be a correlation.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
The 4-27th July report notes the loss of a motorcycle. If they are that detailed then I am sure the loss of an ammo truck would be mentioned.critical mass wrote: ↑12 Jan 2020, 00:25
. However, the loss of ammunition due to abandoncy, enemy action or movement was explicitly not included in the 10% but was included in the reported ammunition consumption.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
You, again, missed the point....Michael Kenny wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 23:10So there could be a 10% error. OK make that 36 rounds (not 40) per claimed kill in the example from sPz Abt 502..
Your math is pants.In addition to other causes of ammunition consumption besides rounds fired,
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
No.
Firing 1079 AP rounds and claiming 25 tanks (47 hits in total) is 'pants'.
1132 HE rounds were fired as well.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Actually, your argumentative logic is faulty.
You assume that those rounds were even fired. People point out that might not be the case. You ignore other plausible arguments. You have a very simplistic understanding of things.
IF all the AP rounds were fired, and you do the actual math of number of runners available per battle day, it works out to less than 10 AP rounds fired per Tiger per Battle Day!
Edit: I think it is worth actually reading the account in Tigers in the Mud that describes the battle. I don't think the OP has. The attack was to regain ground lost and that ground had bunkers/entrenchments and very little enemy armor. The Tigers were basically being used as armored support for infantry attacks.
You assume that those rounds were even fired. People point out that might not be the case. You ignore other plausible arguments. You have a very simplistic understanding of things.
IF all the AP rounds were fired, and you do the actual math of number of runners available per battle day, it works out to less than 10 AP rounds fired per Tiger per Battle Day!
Edit: I think it is worth actually reading the account in Tigers in the Mud that describes the battle. I don't think the OP has. The attack was to regain ground lost and that ground had bunkers/entrenchments and very little enemy armor. The Tigers were basically being used as armored support for infantry attacks.
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Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Yes that sounds an awfully low number doesn't it. Perhaps you should check the average 75mm/17 pdr rounds expended per day per tank for 21st AG in Normandy and then compare it to your Tiger number.Yoozername wrote: ↑12 Jan 2020, 06:47IF all the AP rounds were fired, and you do the actual math of number of runners available per battle day, it works out to less than 10 AP rounds fired per Tiger per Battle Day!
Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Even YOU cannot honestly believe that a Tiger was so extremely inaccurate. You cannot know how much AP was actually fired at tanks so your calculation is wrong. Given your prejudices against Tiger probably an attempt at gving a wrong impression about the performance of Tiger tanks.Michael Kenny wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 19:32No one would ever believe the Tiger expended 40 rounds per claimed kill-if we did not have the data that shows it did!Yoozername wrote: ↑11 Jan 2020, 18:38To be correct, it says 'Material losses'. Unless you have some other data that says otherwise, this can easily be taken as the lost ammunition in the total write-offs, abandoned, or destroyed in trucks/dumps.
Re: Tiger tank Ammunition expenditure.
Very true. He does not know on what type of targets the rounds were fired. There was certainly no question of big tank battles in these actions.Yoozername wrote: ↑12 Jan 2020, 06:47Actually, your argumentative logic is faulty.
You assume that those rounds were even fired. People point out that might not be the case. You ignore other plausible arguments. You have a very simplistic understanding of things.
IF all the AP rounds were fired, and you do the actual math of number of runners available per battle day, it works out to less than 10 AP rounds fired per Tiger per Battle Day!
Edit: I think it is worth actually reading the account in Tigers in the Mud that describes the battle. I don't think the OP has. The attack was to regain ground lost and that ground had bunkers/entrenchments and very little enemy armor. The Tigers were basically being used as armored support for infantry attacks.
Last edited by Aida1 on 12 Jan 2020, 11:14, edited 1 time in total.