Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

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Ружичасти Слон
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Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 27 Jan 2020 16:44

More help please.

According to the relevant mobilization plan, commonly referred to as MP-41 in English language literature, the Moscow Military District (MBO) was to be established at 614.167 personnel.

According to the official data contained with БОЕВОЙ И ЧИСЛЕННЫЙ СОСТАВ ВООРУЖЕННЫХ СИЛ СССР В ПЕРИОД ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ ВОЙНЫ (1941-1945 гг.) Статистический сборник № 1 (22 июня 1941 г.) on 1 June 1941 the MBO was populated by 256.275 regular troops and 82.213 recently called up campers (БУС). That leaves 275.679 reservists still available to be called up to meet MP-41 establishment targets.

On 4 July 1941, the relevant authorities issued an order to raise a Moscow Militia force of 270.000 troops to fill out 25 Militia division. This resulted very quickly in the formation of 12 divisions averaging about 10.500-11.000 in strength and two army level headquarters. In total about 133.000 strong.

This seems to be (one of) the first orders (4 July) generating forces beyond the MP-41 scheme.

I assume the 275.679 troops of MP-41 not mobilized on 1 June were the first to be summoned on or after 22 June and had already reported for duty by the time of the 4 July order to create the Moscow Militia.

Where did they go?

Did they mobilize and fill-up existing units organized according to MP-41? That is what was planned. Any body know which units and formations received them (broadly speaking)?

Or were those troops used to populate the 'new' divisions being created in the 241-260+ number range beyond the MP-41 scheme?

Of course, the same issue applies to all the military districts not just the MBO. In total, 3.610.233 had still to mobilize according to the MP-41 scheme. That's equivalent to the establishment of entire 'rifle forces'!

Does anyone know the answers or could propose a book or published study that looks at this matter?

Thank you.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Art » 28 Jan 2020 17:15

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
27 Jan 2020 16:44
According to the official data contained with БОЕВОЙ И ЧИСЛЕННЫЙ СОСТАВ ВООРУЖЕННЫХ СИЛ СССР В ПЕРИОД ВЕЛИКОЙ ОТЕЧЕСТВЕННОЙ ВОЙНЫ (1941-1945 гг.) Статистический сборник № 1 (22 июня 1941 г.) on 1 June 1941 the MBO was populated by 256.275 regular troops and 82.213 recently called up campers (БУС). That leaves 275.679 reservists still available to be called up to meet MP-41 establishment targets.
That is not complete correct. First, mobilization involved transfer of personnel between districts (e.g. from Moscow to Baltic district). Then requirements were calculated with 10 or 15% of overhead above shortfall to the authorized strength to account for incomplete turnout. Finally there were also reservists needed for the Navy, NKVD etc. So the planned mobilization was supposed to involve large figures. How actual mobilization related to the plans is a curios question I don't remember seeing a detailed answer to.
According to the relevant mobilization plan, commonly referred to as MP-41 in English language literature, the Moscow Military District (MBO) was to be established at 614.167 personnel.
Let us count.
10 rifle divisions = 145 000
2 mechanized corps = 72 000
3 rifle corps HQ = about 10 000
corps and GHQ artillery - about 20 000
So total about 250 000 men in combat ground troops. The rest should be first of all in replacement and training units and military schools. Also large anti-aircraft defense elements, air forces (especially ground services), signal units, construction, motor transport, depots, hospitals and other noncombat elements.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 28 Jan 2020 19:12

Art wrote:
28 Jan 2020 17:15
That is not complete correct. First, mobilization involved transfer of personnel between districts (e.g. from Moscow to Baltic district).
I appreciate that. That is why l gave the total for the entire country. If reservists are mobilized in MBO but sent to PribOBO, it alters the individual numbers but not the total.

MP-41 shows the total establishment for all 210 sd, gsd and msd was 3.348.335. According to the 1 June statistics, there were still 3.610.233 not yet summoned. Of course they were needed to fill out other types of units as well, but is an interesting comparison of scale.
Art wrote:
28 Jan 2020 17:15
Then requirements were calculated with 10 or 15% of overhead above shortfall to the authorized strength to account for incomplete turnout.
If the excess was retained, they shold be in the БУС data. If not, they remain in the 'still to be called' category.
Art wrote:
28 Jan 2020 17:15
Finally there were also reservists needed for the Navy, NKVD etc. So the planned mobilization was supposed to involve large figures. How actual mobilization related to the plans is a curios question I don't remember seeing a detailed answer to.
Indeed.
Art wrote:
28 Jan 2020 17:15
According to the relevant mobilization plan, commonly referred to as MP-41 in English language literature, the Moscow Military District (MBO) was to be established at 614.167 personnel.
Let us count.
10 rifle divisions = 145 000
2 mechanized corps = 72 000
3 rifle corps HQ = about 10 000
corps and GHQ artillery - about 20 000
So total about 250 000 men in combat ground troops. The rest should be first of all in replacement and training units and military schools. Also large anti-aircraft defense elements, air forces (especially ground services), signal units, construction, motor transport, depots, hospitals and other noncombat elements.
I agree that the reservists had many places to fill. But careful consideration of the numbers throws up some intetesting points.

MP-41 establishes training facilities at 411.512. Most of those will be filled in peace and war. 654.986 in rear services, a large proportion will be required in peace and war. On the other hand, 779.418 allocated to replacement units would have close to zero in peace and would need filling completely from the reserve.

My interest in asking this question is an attempt to plot the scale of mobilization and timeframe thereof.

Across the entire Red Army, the statistics show the need to call a further 3.610.233 to bring the numbers up to establishment according to MP-41. By 4 July, the authorities were accepting volunteers in Moscow in addition to those they were summoning and they were creating numerous new divisions outside MP-41. If the 3.610.233 are feeding the new divisions numbered 241 and above, they are not filling out the MP-41 divisions as planned. No doubt there was an element of both.

Gaining an understanding of the ratio and numbers is what interests me. Why? I think far too many English language writers have been overawed by the Red Army's ability to generate forces without truely undestanding the numbers and realizing that they were, perhaps, not quite as spectacular as presented.

For example, during July the Red Army was creating new divisions to adhoc ShTATs with about 10.000 troops. Whilst these are new divisions by number, if the troops are drawn from the 3.610.233, this is not some spectacular feat of mobilization or regeneration. It is a simpler reallocation of resources. The Red Army could create 200 of these new divisions and still 'only' use 2.500.000ish of the 3.610.233.

I'm just thinking allowed, so please do not think l am suggesting this is what happened. On the contrary, l am hoping to track down the data to make an informed analysis.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Art » 29 Jan 2020 15:15

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
28 Jan 2020 19:12
MP-41 shows the total establishment for all 210 sd, gsd and msd was 3.348.335. According to the 1 June statistics, there were still 3.610.233 not yet summoned.
You refer to the February draft versions. By the start of June after many changes and reorganizations numbers were already different:
Mobilization.png
In additional expansions of fortification troops in early June 1941 increased the strength by further 240 000 men to about 9 350 000. How it was distributed by districts is unclear. Just from common sense the Moscow district as one of the most populated was supposed to include a large proportion of schools and replacement units. It also had massive air-defense elements at Moscow and other large cities and air bases with large large ground service troops. Similarly there is more or less complete information on breakdown of the peace-time army as a whole by branches, arms and services, but no information for individual districts.

Again form the common sense I would suggest that mobilization in the Moscow district mostly followed the plan. The most problematic thing was planned shipment of personnel to other districts, Baltic district in particular. Here pre-war plans obviously became impractical very soon. I can't say if they how they were executed or modified and to what extent.
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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 29 Jan 2020 17:32

Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 15:15
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
28 Jan 2020 19:12
MP-41 shows the total establishment for all 210 sd, gsd and msd was 3.348.335. According to the 1 June statistics, there were still 3.610.233 not yet summoned.
You refer to the February draft versions. By the start of June after many changes and reorganizations numbers were already different:

Thank you for the data in the two tables. Which publication do they come from?

Yes. I am using the February data as it very comprehensive. I have found many changes to that data but it is very fragmentory and difficult to understand its place in the picture. For example Zaharov provides the data of table 7 but not table 8.
Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 15:15

In additional expansions of fortification troops in early June 1941 increased the strength by further 240 000 men to about 9 350 000. How it was distributed by districts is unclear. Just from common sense the Moscow district as one of the most populated was supposed to include a large proportion of schools and replacement units. It also had massive air-defense elements at Moscow and other large cities and air bases with large large ground service troops. Similarly there is more or less complete information on breakdown of the peace-time army as a whole by branches, arms and services, but no information for individual districts.

Again form the common sense I would suggest that mobilization in the Moscow district mostly followed the plan. The most problematic thing was planned shipment of personnel to other districts, Baltic district in particular. Here pre-war plans obviously became impractical very soon. I can't say if they how they were executed or modified and to what extent.
I agree.

From the data tables you posted, the number of reservists still to be called up according to the revisions to MP-41 is 4.193.799. Compare that to the establishment for rifle and mechanized forces combined: 4.295.206.

Unfortunately, l'm not getting very far with understanding where the troops mobilized immediately after 22 June were sent or how they were employed. Both Russian and English language literature promotes the *new* 291 divisions and 94 brigades formed by December without giving any detail to explain how they were formed and populated. Some clearly were *new* such as those derived from the volunteer Moscow Militia. However, the divisions formed from existing NKVD troops may be *new* to the Red Army orbat but the troops that formed them previously appeared on NKVD unit lists. Not completely *new* but rather reassigned. How many *new* divisions were created from reservists allocated on paper to replacement regiments/brigades of MP-41 but never replaced anybody according to the original scheme? 768.267 could generate 70 divisions at 10.000 strength.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Art » 29 Jan 2020 21:06

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
29 Jan 2020 17:32
Thank you for the data in the two tables. Which publication do they come from?
M.V. Zakharov "Nakanune Velikikh Ispytanniy"
http://militera.lib.ru/h/zaharov_mv02/index.html
Although it is not explicitly stated the tables pertain to the situation from late April to early June 1941.
However, the divisions formed from existing NKVD troops may be *new* to the Red Army orbat but the troops that formed them previously appeared on NKVD unit lists.
No, NKVD released only a small cadre of officers and NCOs (1500 per division by the plan), the bulk were fresh reservists.
How many *new* divisions were created from reservists allocated on paper to replacement regiments/brigades of MP-41 but never replaced anybody according to the original scheme? 768.267 could generate 70 divisions at 10.000 strength.
I believe, part of the personnel for new formations was channeled vie replacement units. But that was their normal job and not something exceptional.
In the final run both the both the number of men actually inducted and the number of formations fielded by the end of 1941 went a way further than the mobilization plan envisaged. And starting from early July a number of decrees and orders were issued that inducted those categories of reservists which were not subject to initial mobilization (born before 1905, with deferments or not assigned to mobilized units). In this sense it is obvious that mobilization continued beyond pre-war plans.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 31 Jan 2020 15:00

Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 21:06
M.V. Zakharov "Nakanune Velikikh Ispytanniy"
http://militera.lib.ru/h/zaharov_mv02/index.html
Although it is not explicitly stated the tables pertain to the situation from late April to early June 1941.
Thank you. That is the book l got only 1 table from. Now l know copy l found on the internet was poor quality and missing pages.
Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 21:06
No, NKVD released only a small cadre of officers and NCOs (1500 per division by the plan), the bulk were fresh reservists.
Interesting information. Most writers just describe them as NKVD divisions like all troops come from NKVD.
Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 21:06
I believe, part of the personnel for new formations was channeled vie replacement units. But that was their normal job and not something exceptional.
Of course. But consequence is that divisions already fighting will not receive any reinforcements.
Art wrote:
29 Jan 2020 21:06
In the final run both the both the number of men actually inducted and the number of formations fielded by the end of 1941 went a way further than the mobilization plan envisaged. And starting from early July a number of decrees and orders were issued that inducted those categories of reservists which were not subject to initial mobilization (born before 1905, with deferments or not assigned to mobilized units). In this sense it is obvious that mobilization continued beyond pre-war plans.
Yes that is very clear. Mobilization very soon after 22 June was done outside MP-41 plan. Soviet high command was good at adapting to unexpected problems.

It is interesting for me to understand when the total mobilized exceeded the MP-41 plans and when it exceeded numbers estimated by German army intelligence. On another discussion i saw german army expected up to 12 million and 370 divisions.

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Re: Moscow MD mobilization June/July 1941

Post by Art » 02 Feb 2020 20:14

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
31 Jan 2020 15:00
Interesting information. Most writers just describe them as NKVD divisions like all troops come from NKVD.
Those were bad writers then. According to the NKVD order of 29.6.1941:
...
In order to form aforementioned divisions NKVD troops release from their cadres 1000 privates and NCOs and 500 officers per division. For a remainder of personnel requests should be submitted to the Red Army's General Staff to call from reserve personnel of all ranks.
...
Simply speaking, the bulk of the personnel was to be taken from reserve. The similar situation was with weapons, equipment and materials which came from stocks or current production.
The story was well known already in the Soviet period.
By all probability these release of personnel by the NKVD was compensated by reservists, although I don't remember details.

It's clear form orders issued that formation of other divisions in late June - early July (Moscow militia) in particular involved additional calls of reservists not covered by the initial mobilization. Especially important was mobilization in endangered western regions.

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