So it would seem.
A very detailed response.
Thanks.
The big question is : WHY did the Germans abandon the battle west of NN-Dniepr line after 3 weeks of fighting, while they knew that decisive battles east of the NN-Dniepr line were impossible ?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).ljadw wrote:4 The collapse of the regime could only happen if the Red army was defeated west of the DD line
5 The defeat of the Red Army west of the DD line depended on the willingness of Stalin to send the Red Army west of the DD line.
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
Nonsense. There were always going to be different phases. Completely defeating the red army in the border area was the most optimistic scenario but not the only one.BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).ljadw wrote:4 The collapse of the regime could only happen if the Red army was defeated west of the DD line
5 The defeat of the Red Army west of the DD line depended on the willingness of Stalin to send the Red Army west of the DD line.
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
Perfectly untrue and the reason why one kept pushing on very late in the season in the conviction that the red army was near collapse.
What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
The logistical base needed to be pushed forward after the first phase of operations which required particularly working on the rail lines. .Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 22:03What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
What was 7-10 July Germany army need for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?
There was no such plan : the logistic needs would depend on the number of divisions that would be needed to advance from the DD line to the Volga and,as only a small number could do this, it would depend on the Soviet resistance : if the Soviets collapsed west of the DD line, there would be no logic problems ;if not ,....Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 22:03What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
Obviously not true. The logistical base is moved forward after the first phase . Always needed to happen in any scenario; even the most optimistic one.ljadw wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 10:02There was no such plan : the logistic needs would depend on the number of divisions that would be needed to advance from the DD line to the Volga and,as only a small number could do this, it would depend on the Soviet resistance : if the Soviets collapsed west of the DD line, there would be no logic problems ;if not ,....Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 22:03What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
Untrue as there was no need to win in the first phase.
Nobody have some datas on this?Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 22:03What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
What was 7-10 July Germany army need for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?
The best ( and only good ) situation was : no pause needed, advance by small forces with what was available .Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 20:17Nobody have some datas on this?Ружичасти Слон wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 22:03What was before start invasion Germany army plan for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?BDV wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 20:51
That is incorrect representation of the German POV. Sovjets DID send their forces west of DD line (well, west of Narva-Nevel - Dniepr line). It was the Germans who abandoned the battle west of NN-Dniepr line in the July 7-10 timeframe and decided to panzer-test Russian backfield's emptiness (it wasn't; hilarity ensued).
This German decision in turn created the known logistical problems of 1941; furthermore, the tactically-driven deployment of road and rail repair assets to the AGN sector in 1941 snowballed into the logistical problems of 1942.
What was 7-10 July Germany army need for logistics after NN-Dniepr line?
General Marcks was write in study that must to be pause after stage 2. That is about NN-Dniepr line. Pause for to repair mechanized vehicles and for to restock logistics. Pause was to be 3-6 weeks was depend on estimation of Red Army force left to destroy. If small short pause. If big long pause.
Fugate was write Paulus war games was show to need pause for 3 weeks for logistics at about NN-Dniepr line.
No datas on what forces and what logistics was to need after NN-Dniepr line. It seems to me nobody was make calculations and study. Everybody was wait until get to NN-Dniepr line then to decide.
When Germany army was get to NN-Dniepr line decision was to keep invading. No pause.
Very strange.
Maybe somebody know Germany army calculation for logistics for after NN-Dniepr line with no pause.