APCR Porduction

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Brady
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APCR Porduction

Post by Brady » 06 Mar 2020 21:06

Hi-

I recall reading a Thread about the Limited amount of Specialty rounds that German was able to produce, past some point in 43 because of a limited availability of Tungsten, it went into some depth about production figures and stocks on hand but I cant seam to find it when I do a search for it ?

Anyone have a clue ?

Peasant
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Peasant » 07 Mar 2020 12:16

M.Rausch wrote:
23 Apr 2006 21:32
As for the tungsten PzGr 40 production stopping in 1943 is a solid and fairly well documented fact AFAIK as is the German problems of getting tungsten. Production data exists (see Hahn: "Waffen und Geheimwaffen...." for example), even if PzGr40 production data is not necessarily split up on the different types.
Sorry, but this seems to be another myth built up over the time.

I have copies of about 760 original documents showing the German Heeres ammunition production, consumption and storage numbers with overview of the last 12-15 months on each page. They tell something different.

For the 5 cm Pak 38, 5 cm Kw.K. L/60 and 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40 there was still Pzgr. 40 production running in December 1943 and there is not any indication that the production stopped in that month.

Hahn is telling no production numbers for the Pzgr. 40 for the year 1944, because he used obviously the same sources I have and the sheets for 1944/45 are missing for almost all Paks and KwK's. He is telling no numbers for 1944 not because there was no production but because he had no sources for them ;)

Some storage numbers to get an idea about the German supply situation.

December 1943:
680,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 3.7 cm Pak and about 269,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the Kw.K.
207,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Pak 38.
298,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. (L/42).
32,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 (L/60).
About 15,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40.
55,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (H.K.) for the 7.5 cm Pak 41.
60,000 7.6 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.6 cm Pak.

For all these guns there are no documents telling the data for 1944/45.

These are the numbers after rounds were sent to the tungsten reserve. The 7.9 mm, 2 cm, 7.5 cm Kw.K. 42 and 8.8 cm Kw.K. 36 tungsten core ammunition was all sent to the tungsten reserve till end of 1943 or much earlier.

Also here some penetration numbers from the Krupp tests from 1942-45, also from original sources.

On 500 m distance and 60° impact angle (German notation) 174 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 and 80 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (W). While a steel core round was under ´test with 110 mm penetration on this distance, it seems the round was not introduced.

On 100 m distance and 60° impact angle (German notation) 126 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 77 mm for the 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 (W).
Might be this: viewtopic.php?p=887050#p887050

Brady
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Brady » 07 Mar 2020 17:09

TY

So, again this is purely conjecture, the notion that they stopped production in late 43 ?

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 08 Mar 2020 12:23

Brady wrote:
07 Mar 2020 17:09
TY

So, again this is purely conjecture, the notion that they stopped production in late 43 ?
That depends on what you mean by 'stopped production'.

Looking at the November 1943 ammunition production summary, in terms of new Tungsted ammunition:
  • 3,7 cm Pzgr Patr 40 has no new production from March 1943
  • 4,2 cm Pzgr Patr 41 has no new production from August 1943
  • 5 cm Pzgr Patr 40 has no new production from August 1943
  • 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 40 has no new production from September 1943
  • 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 40/42 has no new production from August 1943
  • 7,5 cm Pzgr Patr 41 has no new production from August 1943
  • 7,62 cm Pzgr Patr 40 has no new production from August 1943
  • 8,8 cm Pzgr Patr 40/43 has no new production from June 1943
It is important to understand that there were two numbers in terms of ammunition inflow: Waffenamt numbers for production and Feldzeuginspektion numbers for total inflow. The former is new production, while the latter is ammunition that is made available for distribution to front-line units. This would of course include ammunition from production, but it would also include ammunition returned from units (e.g., if they were re-deployed or no longer had weapons to fire that ammunition). It would also include warheads that, e.g., were transferred from the anti-tank gun round onto the tank gun round of the same caliber. Therefore, the Feldzeuginspektion number can't be used to determine production numbers.

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Contender
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Contender » 09 Mar 2020 19:43

I suspect 75mm & 88mm APCR was at deployed (if not produced) & used until the end of the war in small numbers against heavy resistance or rather in heavy fighting I have no data so its just speculation but the Hungarians for instance never produced an APCR round however they were given APCR rounds by the Germans for the PaK-40 & Turan III test bed (made in 1944) which they dubbed "7.5 cm 40.M különleges német páncélgránát".

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 10 Mar 2020 16:07

Some storage numbers to get an idea about the German supply situation.

December 1943:
680,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 3.7 cm Pak and about 269,000 3.7 cm Pzgr. 40 for the Kw.K.
207,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Pak 38.
298,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. (L/42).
32,000 5 cm Pzgr. 40 and 40/1 for the 5 cm Kw.K. 39 (L/60).
About 15,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40.
55,000 7.5 cm Pzgr. 41 (H.K.) for the 7.5 cm Pak 41.
60,000 7.6 cm Pzgr. 40 for the 7.6 cm Pak.
The numbers also show that the Pak 40 seems to have had very limited Pzgr 40 at all. There is another document that shows by December of 1943, there is no stock left. Basically, the Pak 40 was firing Pzgr 39 and HL and HE for the rest of the war.

Likewise, the Panther KWK 42 probably had extremely limited amounts.

One has to look at the storage numbers and factor in the actual number of fielded tubes that could consume that ammunition. Something like the Pak 41, with only ~150 produced pieces, would have some life left in it. But, again, this is the primary round for that weapon, not a special round. At the other end of the spectrum, the 7,5 cm Pzgr 40 for the 7.5 cm Kw.K./Stu.K. 40, has quite a 'fleet' of vehicles by December 1943. So, 15,000 would have to be divided up between the Panzer IVs and StuG III in Panzer and Sturmartillerie units. I have read reports of its use in early 1944, so while production may have halted, existing stocks issued to units may not have been 'recalled'.

I would assume that 3,7 cm weapons would largely be withdrawn by December 1943, and there would be plenty of ammunition for the Stuka tank busters. I also assume that ammunition is either percussion or electrically fired, and it could be recalled and refitted. Again, the 5 cm supply could be refitted, perhaps even taking the 5 cm L42 projectiles and fitting to L60 'brass' at some level. Dec 43 still had Panzer III L60 and Pak 38 fielded in some numbers.

The cessation of use of tungsten carbide in ammunition also saw that a stockpile of 'bolts', that is, just the actual penetrators not already manufactured into projectiles, were kept in a reserve. Much work goes into creating them, and I suppose they would only be repurposed back into machining elements if really needed.

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 10 Mar 2020 23:46

Report 16.02.1944
Oberleutnant Höllenburg

Battr. - Chef 3./Stu.Gesch.Abt.243

Report on the new appearance of Russian weapons

3./243 has operated in Nikopol since the establishment of the bridgehead. There the first 11/26/43 heavy battle tanks of the KW 14 and KW 85 model appeared for the first time. KW 14

assault cannon

Improved chassis of the old KW I
Front armor: 140 mm
Weight: approximately 46 tons
Armament: 15.2 cm howitzer (turning range of the weapon far superior to that of German assault cannons)

This vehicle is in duel against the upper German assault cannon (Ausf. G) and can open fire up to distances of 3,000 meters . 15 shots fired at its front and side armor (distance 1,600 meters) failed to pierce it.

KW 85 fighter cart

Improved chassis of the old KW I
Front armor: 140 mm
Weight: approximately 46 tons
Armament: 8.5 cm long barrel

The German assault cannon (Ausf. G) has been in duels against this lower vehicle. Several shots against its frontal and lateral zone at distances between 400 and 2,000 meters failed to pierce its armor (Pz.Gr.39 and Pz.Gr.40).



The speed of both vehicles on bad terrain, where our assault guns have to circulate in the first gear, has been 30 km / h and more. They leave our assault guns behind without problems.

It has been destroyed over distances of more than 2,000 meters (flight path of the curved projectile) by perforating the armor of its roofs.


In reference to other weapons, 8.5 cm anti-tank guns have been fought mostly.

In recent times it has been observed in ground attack aircraft ( Schlachtflieger ) 4.7 cm guns.

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Alejandro_
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Alejandro_ » 11 Mar 2020 11:28

Report 16.02.1944
Interesting, do you have the original source?

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 14 Mar 2020 03:40

Alejandro_ wrote:
11 Mar 2020 11:28
Report 16.02.1944
Interesting, do you have the original source?
Look in panzer-elmito. He redid his website. The original German document is there as well.

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 15 Mar 2020 17:57

Miles posted this ammunition data. It breaks down the usage of the various ammunition types. I would think that Pzgr 40 ammunition would be available for Kursk. It does not appear that it is used in great quantities though.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=246785

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 20 Mar 2020 00:29

Peeved posted this info before....


Image

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Contender » 22 Mar 2020 13:35

What of Pzgr 40(w)? Technically it shouldn't be rare given its composition and while its penetration is low it should theoretically be useful as a defacto HEP round especially vs soviet armor.

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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Yoozername » 22 Mar 2020 17:53

Contender wrote:
22 Mar 2020 13:35
What of Pzgr 40(w)? Technically it shouldn't be rare given its composition and while its penetration is low it should theoretically be useful as a defacto HEP round especially vs soviet armor.

It was in the 'Ringbook' as a mechanical drawing from 4/43. But evidently, not used at Kursk by that Corp. It would be effective against fast moving light vehicles and light tanks.

In the case of armored vehicles, having special rounds is asking a lot from a loader. Having regular HE, AP, HEAT, smoke, APCR, or cannister, etc., also reduces the number of preferred rounds.

It looks like the 7,5 cm L24 fired off the smoke rounds. Regular Panzer IV L48 would probably just have Pzgr 39 and HE, HL/B and just a few Pzgr 40. Still that is a lot of busywork.

Panthers could get by with Pzgr 39 and HE.

critical mass
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by critical mass » 23 Mar 2020 17:23

The decisio to stop Hk ammunition utilizing tugnsten was made before august 1943 (compare attachment).
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Contender
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Re: APCR Porduction

Post by Contender » 23 Mar 2020 19:55

explain these guys then:
Image
Image
whom are 1943-1945 craft

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