Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

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Sergey Romanov
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by Sergey Romanov » 16 May 2020 08:35

wm wrote:
12 May 2020 00:24
I don't care about people killed in Jedwabne - presumably for their collaboration with the murderous Soviets.
???

michael mills
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by michael mills » 20 May 2020 03:44

What wm wrote about the motive for the killing of the Jews of Jedwabne by their ethnic Polish neighbours does have some basis in historical fact.

The Jews who were killed in Jedwabne may not themselves have been guilty of any high-level collaboration with the Soviet occupiers in the oppression of the ethnic Polish population in the Bialystok area, but it is a documented fact that there was such high-level collaboration by a large part of the Jewish population of the Eastern Provinces of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939, particularly by the younger members of that population and those with Left-wing views. Because of that collaboration, the ethnic Polish population, which had already been rather hostile to their Jewish neighbours for several centuries, came to believe in the collective guilt of the Jews, and regarded them all as deserving punishment, regardless of what they had done as individuals.

It is entirely possible that the Jews of Jedwabne were innocent of any wrongdoing against their ethnic Polish neighbours, but that was not the point; in the eyes of those neighbours they belonged to a population group that in the mass had proved disloyal to Poland and had collaborated with the Soviet invaders, both in 1920 and again in 1939.

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RG
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by RG » 21 May 2020 11:48

history1 wrote:
12 May 2020 05:50
Polish citizens - which again after WWII- did murder even their Soviet liberators,
Liberators? Really?

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wm
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 07 Jun 2020 12:15

The "liberators" killed tens of thousands of Polish patriots, imprisoned or deported hundreds of thousands, forced to emigrate millions, enslaved Poland for a long time, destroying its economy in the process.

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wm
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 07 Jun 2020 12:44

michael mills wrote:
20 May 2020 03:44
which had already been rather hostile to their Jewish neighbours for several centuries, came to believe in the collective guilt of the Jews, and regarded them all as deserving punishment, regardless of what they had done as individuals.
The rural Jews and the peasants lived in a symbiotic relationship; there was no hostility between the two groups. Even during the massive 1937 peasant strike, when the rule of law collapsed in many places, the Jews weren't attacked.

The Jews formed the Polish lower middle class, i.e., small shop owners, semi-professionals, and craftsmen. They provided the bloodstream of the rural economy. The class was almost entirely Jewish. Their shtetls were shopping centers, malls for the surrounding countryside, i.e., masses of living there peasants. The Jews of Jedwabne formed a micro shtetl in a Polish village.
A peasant trusted more "his" Jews than city people; an official was just forget it - an enemy. Such statements can be found in many Jewish testimonies.

We don't know what happened in Jedwabne, the post-war trial of the perpetrators did everything to hide any evidence of anti-Soviet resistance, Soviet persecutions, deportations, murders.
The fleeing before the advancing Wehrmacht Soviets left behind huge cheaps of murdered political prisoners, mostly local people. That alone was a more than sufficient reason to exact vengeance on their local helpers.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 17 Jun 2020 20:39

WM because you are Polish can you try to answer these two questions?

Was Polish antisemitism before WW2 really more like support for right wing Zionism?

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts ... sm-zionism

Were Polish citizens which collaborated with Germans really by the most part Poles which were bilingual, speaking both Polish and German? In western part of Poland you had a lot of them and they were seen fit for Germanization by the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisa ... Partitions

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wm
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 19 Jun 2020 20:50

No, no "right-wing Zionism" was a late development.

In summer 1938 Ze'ev Jabotinsky arrived in Poland and in talks with leaders of the ruling party (Sanacja) more or less said; give me money and resources, then I will conquer Palestine from the British, expel the Arabs, and settle a million or two of Polish Jews instead.

The ruling party liked that (for various reasons), trained his fighters, sell him weapons, lent him money. And more importantly, it used the development for propaganda purposes during the nearest elections. They badly needed it because they were unpopular and their enemies were numerous.

The main detractor of the Jews was the political party called Endecja, they were trying to reduce the Jewish influence over the Polish economy (up to 40 percent, depending on who was doing the math) and their political influence (again for various reasons). In that they were unsuccessful.
But as the Jews were informal allies of Sanacja they were easier to attack than (the powerful and dangerous) Sanacja itself. And in this political proxy war, they were somewhat more successful.

It was one of many political conflicts between political groups in Poland, not especially different from the others. Actually sometimes Endecja offered or even signed a political alliance with Jewish parties.

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wm
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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 19 Jun 2020 20:55

More than 700 thousand Germans lived in pre-war Poland - and many more people with "drops" of German blood (according to the Nazis 2.75 million in total), although only 480,000 were believed to be actively German pre-war.
For most of them accepting German citizenship was basically mandatory, although many of them didn't want it.

Of course, so many "new" Germans were a huge problem because they were everywhere and they worked among the Poles.
Additionally, there were a few examples of short-lived, local collaboration against the Soviets and the Ukrainian UPA and that's was all.

A huge problem was the collapse of social order during the (hellish) occupation and the resulting mass of criminals and criminals gangs but they didn't collaborate they simply robbed, raped, and murdered. And they were equally afraid of the Germans and the Polish underground.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 08:06

Ok interesting. Article says also Jabotinsky was very nationalistic and in quarrel with other zionist leaders from his time and that Sanitation government was kind of balancing support for his group with the need for an alliance with the British.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts ... sm-zionism

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by history1 » 20 Jun 2020 10:10

wm wrote:
19 Jun 2020 20:55
More than 700 thousand Germans lived in pre-war Poland - and many more people with "drops" of German blood (according to the Nazis 2.75 million in total), although only 480,000 were believed to be actively German pre-war.
For most of them accepting German citizenship was basically mandatory, although many of them didn't want it.
[...]
While even Poles with a drop of German blood in them tried to get onto the Deutsche Volksliste 3 as it did provide privilegs & benefits for them. The Germans did even care for the families of killed Trawniki men paying them a widow's pension, etc.. So while there were sure Poles of the German minority who appreciated it there were others who did not, like wm states. Keep in mind that being a German ciitzen means also that they were required to serve in the military and that they could have been and were drafted. Though many of them serving in the Wehrmacht did later dersert and joined Allied units resp. Polish units in the UK.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by wm » 20 Jun 2020 11:20

I don't think Jabotinsky's nationalism was that important. His plans resulted from his realism, not his nationalism. After all, he was a highly intelligent person.

Other Jewish leaders entertained some quite naive ideas: that recovering Palestine by political means was possible, that the conquered Arabs would surrender to their new rulers meekly and would even love it (especially Theodor Herzl was hilariously naive in this regard).

Jabotinsky understood it was nonsense, wasn't going to happen. And he was right. In the end, Palestine was recovered by implementing his ideas.

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 12:44

Well... and what happened to the organization of Revisionist Zionism after occupation of Poland? Were they persecuted by Germans? Soviets in their zone of occupation? Did they join Polish resistance or made an alliance with them? Did they have some role in Warshaw ghetto uprising in 1943?

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 12:52

Also here are some interesting informations about Polish - Zionist alliance before WW2.

https://books.google.si/books?id=duWZDw ... nd&f=false

Following the breakout of the Second World War, Jabotinsky and his movement worked to promote the establishment of a Jewish defense force to fight alongside the Allied Forces against Nazi Germany. After Jabotinsky passed away in August 1940, the revisionists worked towards increasing the number of Yishuv volunteers in the British Army. Betar branches in Europe were demolished during the war, though its members were active participants in the ghetto rebellions and in partisan units. After the war, they continued to be active in promoting illegal immigration of holocaust survivors to Eretz Yisrael.


https://www.knesset.gov.il/vip/jabotins ... e_eng.html

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 17:07

From Wikipedia about Soviet persecution of Jews. So Zionist organizations were also designated as counter-revolutionary and forbidden.

The Soviet annexation was accompanied by the widespread arrests of Polish government officials, police and military personnel, teachers, priests, judges, border guards, etc., followed by executions and massive deportation to Soviet interior and forced labour camps were many perished as a result of harsh conditions. The largest group of all those arrested or deported were ethnic Poles but Jews accounted for significant percentage of all the prisoners. Jewish refugees from Western Poland who registered for repatriation back to the German zone, wealthy Jewish capitalists, prewar political and social activists were labelled "class enemies" and deported for that reason. Jews caught for illegal border crossings or engaged in illicit trade and other "illegal" activities were also arrested and deported. Several thousand, mostly captured Polish soldiers were executed on the spot, some of them were Jewish. Private property, land, banks, factories, businesses, shops, and large workshops were nationalized. Political activity ceased and political prisoners filled the jails, many of whom were later executed. Zionism was designated as counter-revolutionary and forbidden. All Jewish and Polish newspapers were shut down within a day of the entry of the Soviet forces and anti-religious propaganda was conducted mainly through the new Soviet press which attacked religion in general and the Jewish faith in particular. Although the synagogues and churches were not shut down, they were heavily taxed. Sovietization of the economy affected the entire population. However, the Jewish communities were more vulnerable because of their distinctive social and economic structure. Red Army also brought with them new and different economic norms expressed in low wages, shortages in materials, rising prices, and a declining living standard. The Soviets also implemented a new employment policy that enabled many Jews to find jobs as civil servants in place of former Polish senior officials and leading personalities who were arrested and exiled to remote regions of Russia together with their families. Some Jewish militia participated in deportations of Poles by the Soviet NKVD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _of_Poland

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Re: Katyn -- 1952 US Congressional findings

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 17:34

Interesting article about Jewsih military union and its role in Warsaw ghetto uprising. It is claimed in the article Revisionist movement had an important role in the uprising, yet they were surelly the minority of Jews involved in the uprising. Revisionist units were heavely armed. During communism in Poland their role in the uprising however was downplayed for political reasons. Jabotinsky organization was still connected with Polish Home army. According to the accounts of SS general Stroop the most heavy battle was fought at Muranowska square were revisionists were stationed. Most of the revisionists died during the rebellion.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25834668?r ... b_contents

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