Vehicle identity requests

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Maxschnauzer
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11461

Post by Maxschnauzer » 22 Jun 2020, 12:35

Hi ilfil,
OK, I'll buy that, Probably not a great idea anyway. From what I hear the Opel Mule wasn't a very robust platform as a Sd. Kfz. 4 much less as a wannabe Sd. Kfz. 9/1.
Cheers,
Max

apollo111
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11462

Post by apollo111 » 22 Jun 2020, 13:09

Another Opel Maultier crane.
maultier Opel-Kranwagen.jpg


ilfil
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11463

Post by ilfil » 22 Jun 2020, 20:17

Well, this is a real one, field conversion used by 210. StuG Abt.
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

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VRIL7
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11464

Post by VRIL7 » 22 Jun 2020, 22:15

Hello to all.
Does anyone else have a photo of the Brossel 780B TAL artillery tractor in good quality without copyright? Except those laid out by Mr. dirk Peeters in post viewtopic.php?p=2274386#p2274386. I would really appreciate it.
Brossel TAL, Laffly S20TL.jpg
Brossel TAL, Laffly S20TL.jpg
brosseltal.jpg
brosseltal.jpg (84.58 KiB) Viewed 1443 times
belgbrosseltalSchlepperLKWTYPTALBau.jpg
brosse10.jpg
prototype
Second photo, does anyone have a good quality?
Regards
Andriy

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11465

Post by Maxschnauzer » 23 Jun 2020, 05:45

ilfil wrote:
22 Jun 2020, 20:17
Well, this is a real one, field conversion used by 210. StuG Abt.
Cheers!
Yes that one looks real, but quite different. The first one has obviously been retouched or recreated at some point, as you noted. What stood out to me is that it was supposedly an SS experimental vehicle. I've not seen any pics of SS vehicles other than those used by the rest of the Wehrmacht. I'm interested to know more about this SS-Kraftfahrtechnische Versuchsabteilung, if it in fact existed. The only reference I found online is this one of organizations purportedly using prisoner labour: http://www.ww2freak.com/empresas-que-al ... s-nazis/4/. What do you guys think?
Cheers,
Max

ilfil
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11466

Post by ilfil » 23 Jun 2020, 07:49

Hi Max,
The rest suspicious moments apart, the jerrycan base is obviously blended with the fender not very convincing, probably in PhotoShop.
1. Have you seen an Opel Blitz, any model, with jerrycan stored in this place?
2. Have you ever seen a jerrycan stored tilted, on any vehicle?
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11467

Post by Maxschnauzer » 23 Jun 2020, 09:01

Hi ilfil,
Both points are red flags indeed. I may be wrong but when anything questionable is presented as "SS" my radar goes up like our friends over in Axis Awards who are constantly dealing with fantasy "SS Honor Rings" and the like..
Cheers,
Max

luckystrike78
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11468

Post by luckystrike78 » 23 Jun 2020, 09:38

Does anyone knows what kind of motorcycle this is? Photo taken in 1935:
Attachments
Unbenannt.jpg

SIS 5
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11469

Post by SIS 5 » 23 Jun 2020, 12:40

Hi,

the SS-Kraftfahrtechnische Versuchsabteilung existed indeed and was located in the town Oranienburg. There a special system of tracks and suspension was developped for the "Maultier" by a conversion of a normal Opel "Blitz" truck. The commander of this unit got an extra pay (30.000 RM) for the efforts. But at the end the system of tracks and suspension was not accepted. The other system developped by Ford was preferred. Here three pics of the test vehicle (source of the pics: "Opel Militärfahrzeuge 1906 - 1945" by Eckhart Bartels.

Regards

Bert
Attachments
Opel Muli 1.png
Opel Muli 1.png (205.27 KiB) Viewed 1377 times
Opel Muli 2.png
Opel Muli 2.png (139.33 KiB) Viewed 1377 times
Opel Muli 3.png
Opel Muli 3.png (151.02 KiB) Viewed 1377 times

SIS 5
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11470

Post by SIS 5 » 23 Jun 2020, 13:39

Hi luckytsrike,

the motorcycle on Your pic is a Victoria KR 9 "Fahrmeister". Here a pic of such motorbike (source of the pic: http://motomania.at/motorrader/details/ ... oe-1936-77):

Regards

Bert
Attachments
Victoria KR 9 Fahrmeister.png
Victoria KR 9 Fahrmeister.png (426.89 KiB) Viewed 1368 times

luckystrike78
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11471

Post by luckystrike78 » 23 Jun 2020, 14:27

Thanks a lot. I searched for a long while and did not find any clue.

ilfil
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11472

Post by ilfil » 23 Jun 2020, 19:54

SIS 5 wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 12:40
Hi,

the SS-Kraftfahrtechnische Versuchsabteilung existed indeed and was located in the town Oranienburg. There a special system of tracks and suspension was developped for the "Maultier" by a conversion of a normal Opel "Blitz" truck. The commander of this unit got an extra pay (30.000 RM) for the efforts. But at the end the system of tracks and suspension was not accepted. The other system developped by Ford was preferred. Here three pics of the test vehicle (source of the pics: "Opel Militärfahrzeuge 1906 - 1945" by Eckhart Bartels.

Regards

Bert
Hi Bert,
AFAIK, and as far my basic German is still good, the experiments of the Waffen SS were with Ford V3000 and with Carden-Lloyd tracked part suspension only. Indeed, it was accepted later for serial production and fitted to all three 2-ton halftracks but Opel have developed their own variants (no less than 3 - one own and two with DAF-Trado tracked part suspensions). There is Opel own development on your pictures. Of course, this doesn't mean this prototype wasn't tested in Oranienburg.
BTW, the third picture is missing in my copy of the book you mentioned. Regretfully it isn't stated which edition it is (I guess 1st) but the cover is this:

Image

Probably because the history is extended up to 1956? However, IMHO this picture is interesting because on it two things are clearly visible (a crop from good quality factory archive picture from glass negative):

Image

1. No mention of any development or test unit on the doors, just the usual load data, and not written in Altdeutsch.
2. The tool box (here chain box) is in its usual place under the body but not under the running board as on that ill-fated fake crane. I can't imagine a normal engineer or designer who will place the box there, where it will be most prone to damage.
Etc., etc.
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

SIS 5
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11473

Post by SIS 5 » 23 Jun 2020, 21:24

Hi ilfil,

thank You very much for Your extremely interesting reply. I have the problem, that there were different sources about the development of the tracked vehicle "Maultier":
Wikipedia: "Um diese Probleme zu lösen, baute eine Einheit der Waffen-SS im Winter 1941/42 das Carden-Lloyd-Kettenlaufwerk eines erbeuteten British Universal Carrier (BUC) behelfsmäßig unter einen 3-Tonner-Ford-Lkw, um damit den schlechten Wegeverhältnissen zu begegnen."
Halbkette.de: "Die ergänzte Abkürzung "SSM" steht dabei für "SS-Maultier", denn das Laufwerk war von der Waffen-SS entwickelt worden. Dieses bestand aus der nach vorn verlegten Hinterachse mit Triebrädern statt der Hinterräder und einem Hilfsrahmen mit vier schraubengefederten Rollenwagen mit je zwei Laufrollen und einer Stützrolle sowie den Leiträdern."
Militracks Overloon: "1942 wurde das „Maultier“ konstruiert: Ein Klöckner-Deutz-Lkw erhielt statt der Hinterachse ein modifiziertes Carden-Lloyd-Kettenlaufwerk."
Vierte Quelle (sorry, forgotten): "zumindest die Opel-Maultiere durch Umbau vorhandener LKW – offensichtlich in der Kraftfahrtechnischen Versuchsabteilung Oranienburg- entstanden, indem die Hinterachse des Opel Dreitonners durch ein Kettenlaufwerk ersetzt wurde."
In these sources there are mentioned all three truck producers: Ford, Klöckner-Deutz, Opel. Here are two pics of another Opel "Blitz" test vehicle. So I assume that the first tests with a "Maultier were made with Opel "Blitz" trucks. Excuse me, please, for my mistake, that I didn´t post these two pics first. On the other three pics of Opel Maultiere I posted there is obviously the system of tracks and suspension developped by Opel, which was not accepted. And I have to beg Your pardon that I didn´t mentioned the source of the third pic of the Opel Maultier. It was not in the book by Eckhart Bartels, but on the internet: https://www.7-forum.com.

Best regards

Bert
Attachments
test 1.png
test 1.png (180.75 KiB) Viewed 1302 times
test 2.png
test 2.png (267.75 KiB) Viewed 1302 times

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Maxschnauzer
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11474

Post by Maxschnauzer » 24 Jun 2020, 05:21

Hi Bert and ilfil,

Thanks very much for that interesting and highly informative discussion which answers a lot of my questions. I actually had two of the pics that Bert posted but no context as to what they were all about. Still the question remains about the veracity of the "Wrecker" version in the initial pic. Anything in the literature about that?
Thanks again, you guys are my mentors!
Cheers,
Max

ilfil
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Re: Vehicle identity requests

#11475

Post by ilfil » 24 Jun 2020, 11:05

Hi Bert,
No need for excuses - nobody's perfect and after all this is only a friendly talk.
In general there are no mistakes in all your sources and they are honest but don't trust Wikipedia much. :wink: I mean in general.
SIS 5 wrote:
23 Jun 2020, 21:24
Halbkette.de: "Die ergänzte Abkürzung "SSM" steht dabei für "SS-Maultier", denn das Laufwerk war von der Waffen-SS entwickelt worden.
And as a recognition in the manuals this abbreviation is even written with runes!

Image

On your pictures above is the first DAF-Trado prototype, after not very successful tests the tracked part was revised and the second variant, built in 1942, was much more sophisticated:

Image

This is converted Luftwaffe Blitz chassis (No. plate WL-0301365) and apparently the tracked part was much better because this prototype was demonstrated in Brelin by DAF test driver Jan Koppens.
The advantage of DAF-Trado approach is that their design was perfect field modification for normal trucks because the rear driving axle wasn't moved forwards, as on the SS Carden-Lloyd development. In the same time this was a shortcoming because such scheme used to develop some unwanted negative dynamic forces in movement, in particular on hard terrains.
Maxschnauzer wrote:
24 Jun 2020, 05:21
Still the question remains about the veracity of the "Wrecker" version in the initial pic. Anything in the literature about that?
Max, I think the situation is extremely clear. Just forget it!
Cheers!
"...and on the 8th day He made truck so that man, made on 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night."

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