Best Pistol of WW2

Discussions on the small arms used by the Axis forces.
FiveStars
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by FiveStars » 12 Jul 2020 20:06

Personally, I would chime in and say that one of the best pistols of the Second World War undoubtedly was the Browning Hipower

Hisname
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hisname » 13 Jul 2020 02:54

C96
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Hans1906
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 13 Jul 2020 11:49

Greetings to the topic,

interesting to see a few more photos of the Mauser C96 / M712 in former Wehrmacht use.
Such photos are probably quite rare, I personally only knew the photo of the soldier of the Waffen-SS with the model M712.

"Despite their reputation as "elites", the SS usually went into battle with the same equipment as the Wehrmacht or even outright obsolete equipment. It wouldn't be unusual for them to be seen with an equally obsolete machine pistol."

I do not think so, the Mauser C96 / M712 was and still is one of the best automatic / full auto pistols ever produced, even measured
to nowaday standards.
The quality of the weapon is unique, regardless of its use at the time.
Whoever could use the pistol once on a shooting range will sign this, specially combined with the so-called "Anschlagschaft".


Hans1906
Es ist im Leben wichtig, viel zu wissen.
Manchmal ist es noch wichtiger, zu wissen, daß man nichts weiß.

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JTV
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by JTV » 13 Jul 2020 17:14

Hans1906 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:49
interesting to see a few more photos of the Mauser C96 / M712 in former Wehrmacht use.
Such photos are probably quite rare, I personally only knew the photo of the soldier of the Waffen-SS with the model M712.

"Despite their reputation as "elites", the SS usually went into battle with the same equipment as the Wehrmacht or even outright obsolete equipment. It wouldn't be unusual for them to be seen with an equally obsolete machine pistol."

I do not think so, the Mauser C96 / M712 was and still is one of the best automatic / full auto pistols ever produced, even measured
to nowaday standards.
The quality of the weapon is unique, regardless of its use at the time.
Whoever could use the pistol once on a shooting range will sign this, specially combined with the so-called "Anschlagschaft".
Might be worth noting that if compared to more normal submachine guns, there have not really been that many full auto pistol designs and in general full-auto pistols were never as popular in military use than the large-size submachine guns.

The problem with M712 seems to have been that when issued, it was normally issued as replacement of normal submachine gun. If you would be infantry soldier, which would you prefer to pick as your only firearm - MP 28/II, MP 38 or M712?

Soldier in second photo from the top (with helmets full of potatoes) is Lieutenant of Finnish Army, not Wehrmacht.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hisname » 13 Jul 2020 17:31

JTV wrote:
13 Jul 2020 17:14
Soldier in second photo from the top (with helmets full of potatoes) is Lieutenant of Finnish Army, not Wehrmacht.
You are from Finland)) You immediately noticed this)))
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Poot
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Poot » 13 Jul 2020 18:29

Hans1906 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 11:49
the Mauser C96 / M712 was and still is one of the best automatic / full auto pistols ever produced, even measured
to nowaday standards.
The quality of the weapon is unique, regardless of its use at the time.
Whoever could use the pistol once on a shooting range will sign this, specially combined with the so-called "Anschlagschaft".


Hans1906
Regardless of your admiration for this model, the claim that it was 'one of the best automatic pistol designs ever produced' is irrelevant. It was issued because they were available at the time, and were swiftly replaced by SMGs. Why? The C96 was old, outdated technology and unsuited to warfare outside of a very narrow niche use. Even then and compared to SMGs, it had a ridiculously low magazine capacity, a painfully short sight radius and was stripper-clip fed vs. detachable magazine fed. It was expensive to produce (milled steel vs. stamped sheet metal) and is not seen in combat use in period photos after 1941. There are many good reasons for that.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

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Hans1906
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 13 Jul 2020 18:30

Okay, JTV,

it makes no sense to talk about any handgun at all...

Not in this forum, but the weapon is more than reliable, even after decades.
The M712 is another topic, still on the Mauser C96, is reliable, even after more than 100 years.


Hans1906
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Manchmal ist es noch wichtiger, zu wissen, daß man nichts weiß.

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JTV
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by JTV » 13 Jul 2020 18:46

Hisname wrote:
13 Jul 2020 17:31

You are from Finland)) You immediately noticed this)))
Yes. The short history of C96 in Finnish use (on my website): http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/PISTOLS2.htm

Mauser C96 was relatively common in Finnish use during World War 2, but not because it would have been preferred or even that popular - about 1,000 had been delivered to Finnish White Army in 1917 - 1918. So there were still hundreds of C96 in military inventory at that time and in general nowhere enough pistols to equip the all soldiers to were supposed be issued one.

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Hans1906
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 13 Jul 2020 18:47

Btw, collecting full auto "whatever" machine pistols is illegial in germany.

Even for a Mauser M712, right into jail, common situation...

Converted to semi-automatic, from full auto, the weapon is illegal.
Entschärft, alles ist noch möglich, hängt von Ihrer persönlichen Beziehung ab, wie immer.
Anything is still possible for those who cultivate the right relationships...

Hans1906

A matter of money, like always, no question about this...
Es ist im Leben wichtig, viel zu wissen.
Manchmal ist es noch wichtiger, zu wissen, daß man nichts weiß.

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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hisname » 14 Jul 2020 16:10

JTV wrote:
13 Jul 2020 18:46
Yes. The short history of C96 in Finnish use (on my website): http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/PISTOLS2.htm

I want to thank you very much and express my respect. I have been reading this website for a long time, this is excellent information.
I and many of my friends who are interested in the History of Armaments believe the same. I am very pleased to meet you here and say this to you personally. And thanks again for your work, you are an excellent specialist.

Sincerely, Dmitriy.

chitoryu12
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by chitoryu12 » 21 Jul 2020 14:32

Hans1906 wrote:
13 Jul 2020 18:30
Okay, JTV,

it makes no sense to talk about any handgun at all...

Not in this forum, but the weapon is more than reliable, even after decades.
The M712 is another topic, still on the Mauser C96, is reliable, even after more than 100 years.


Hans1906
The C96, at best, was no more reliable than any other common pistol design. I actually have shot one, and while its low recoil and accuracy are useful it's also far bulkier and more awkward to use than a conventional handgun. There's good reason its design (a clip-fed magazine in front of the trigger) was abandoned long before WW2 except for stocks of old weapons.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Jul 2020 10:36

Going through my father's old books I came across The Pistol at War by Captain E. H. Robinson (Gale and Polden, Aldershot, 1941).

The book details what it considered to be best practice in British Service.

In the Army pistols were official issue primarily to combatant officers, tank crews and military police.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Hans1906
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 25 Jul 2020 17:31

The Mauser 96 "Karabiner" probably the most expensive weapon produced in the years after WW I.

Semi automatic, probably used by very rich hunters, who were able to afford such an exclusive firearm.

Mauser C96 "Karabiner" attached as a photo.

Never had one of these "Karabiner" close to me, actual value comes close to a nice antique Rolls-Royce Car, in perfect condition...

Strange...

Hans1906

* Have been into a lot of hunting weapons long ago, the C96 "Karabiner" never showed up, not a single time...

In ancient catalogs the Mauser Karabiner was just under 200,- Mark, a lot of money at the time, thwelth time the yearly income
of an odinary worker at that time...
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hans1906 » 25 Jul 2020 19:04

Handguns, crazy stuff...,


a former "friend" offered a FN "Browning" High Power for very short money, coming out of his house with the pistol in his hand,
this idot fired at almost everthing in the garden.

He named the pistol as a "parachute pistol", 12+1 rounds, asking 200,- german Mark back then.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Browning_HP

Very uncomfortable back then, the man was suspicious to us, we left the garden and he was still shooting around in his garden ...
The pistol was sold to another person the same day, for whatever reason...

Early 1970s, MG 151 also for sale, for very little money...
All this stuff was everywhere, just behind the next corner.

Hans1906
Es ist im Leben wichtig, viel zu wissen.
Manchmal ist es noch wichtiger, zu wissen, daß man nichts weiß.

Hisname
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Re: Best Pistol of WW2

Post by Hisname » 26 Jul 2020 04:30

The Mauser C96 Carbine is a purely hunting weapon. From 1897 to 1907, about 1,100 units were produced.
800 pieces of the first type (with a large ring), about 200 pieces of the second type (with a small ring) and about 100 pieces of various modifications.
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