Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Jul 2020, 10:52

There is a clear authoritarian tendency in the Roman Catholic countries of Eastern Europe, most notably in Hungary and Poland, but also in Slovakia. There may be a Slavo-Catholic model developing that is distinct from the EU's traditional frugal north/profligate South divide.

Perhaps the divide within Poland is related to relative religiosity?

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#17

Post by wm » 25 Jul 2020, 22:30

The Church was the backbone of the Polish anti-communist movement.
The Church was the backbone of the Solidarity movement, its martyr - Jerzy Popiełuszko, brutally murdered by the communists was actually a priest.
Over 3000 clergymen sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis, over 350 fighting the communists. Thousands were sent to Nazi KLs and to the Gulag.

Your factless post is basically a slander and needs to be removed.
Last edited by wm on 25 Jul 2020, 22:36, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#18

Post by wm » 25 Jul 2020, 22:34

Futurist wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 05:34
Is Poland actually a theocracy, though?
Poland isn't a theocracy, the people vote not the Church.
In my opinion, Poland is freer than the leading Western countries, especially Britain, France, Germany where the police hunt people posting wrong posts on the Internet.
In this regard, Poland is as free as the US.
Even in pre-war Poland, the influence of the Church wasn't that great, and the Church was at odds with the government frequently.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#19

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Jul 2020, 22:50

Hi wm,

Who are you addressing?

Sid.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#20

Post by Futurist » 26 Jul 2020, 01:10

wm wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 22:34
Futurist wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 05:34
Is Poland actually a theocracy, though?
Poland isn't a theocracy, the people vote not the Church.
In my opinion, Poland is freer than the leading Western countries, especially Britain, France, Germany where the police hunt people posting wrong posts on the Internet.
In this regard, Poland is as free as the US.
Even in pre-war Poland, the influence of the Church wasn't that great, and the Church was at odds with the government frequently.
Poland might be good when it comes to freedom of speech but it is much worse than the US is in regards to LGBT rights. :(

Futurist
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#21

Post by Futurist » 26 Jul 2020, 01:11

Sid Guttridge wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 22:50
Hi wm,

Who are you addressing?

Sid.
His first post was presumably addressed to you and his second post was presumably addressed to me.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#22

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jul 2020, 07:53

Hi Guys,

Let's not be too hasty to give Poland an entirely free pass on the the Freedom of Speech issue. From Time Magazine this year:

Poland's Holocaust Law Is a Dangerous Threat to Free Speech

A counter-protest to a protest on Feb. 5, 2018 near the Presidential Palace in Warsaw organized by far-right groups to protest against reaction of the Israeli authorities to Poland's new holocaust law.......

“They threw me to the ground, handcuffed me, then dragged me into a police van where I was punched in the face several times,” Rafal Suszek, a university lecturer, tells me.

He had been taking part in an anti-fascist event in Warsaw last week on the day that Poland’s Law on the Institute of National Remembrance, known as the “Holocaust law”, came into force.

At the same time, far-right marchers shouting nationalist messages were advancing through the city carrying burning torches.

Suszek had been one of the protesters trying to block the far-right groups, but, like many of those who try and stand up against the rising tide of Polish nationalism, he found himself bruised, cuffed and arrested.

Under the controversial Holocaust law, it is now considered a crime for anyone, apparently anywhere in the world, to accuse “the Polish Nation” of complicity in crimes committed by the Nazis during World War II. In addition to mandating how people will be allowed to talk about Poland’s past, the law also has dangerous ramifications for Poland’s future.

The initial aim of the law, which is contrary to Poland’s obligations under international human rights law, was to prevent people from describing Nazi German death camps in occupied Poland as “Polish camps.” But its scope actually goes much further.

The issue at stake is not about the events surrounding World War II, but freedom of expression and the excessive use of the law to crackdown on dissenting opinions. By outlawing any utterance or written statement or image that is seen to damage “the reputation of the Republic of Poland and the Polish Nation”, or suggests Polish responsibility for or complicity in “Nazi crimes”, it further restricts the right to freedom of expression and will have a wider damaging effect.

From peaceful protesters to historians, teachers to journalists, anyone who openly disagrees with the official nationalist narrative in Polish politics and its take on history – namely that Poland and Poles were solely “victims” of historical events and not perpetrators of any crimes – is at risk of being targeted by prosecution and jail.

The law also allows the authorities to prosecute these “crimes” outside the territory of Poland, including by targeting foreign media outlets. The Holocaust law was used for the first time last week when the Polish Anti-Defamation League (PDL), a nationalist organization close to Poland’s government, filed a complaint against an Argentinian newspaper.

The paper, Página 12, had used a 1950 photograph of anti-communist Polish fighters alongside an article about the pogrom in the town of Jedwabne where hundreds of Jews were killed by their Polish neighbours during World War II. According to the PDL, this amounted to a “manipulation aiming to harm the Polish nation”.

The Speaker of Poland’s Senate has clarified that the law is aimed at Polish citizens, including those living abroad. In a recent letter, he called on Poles overseas to document “all manifestations of anti-Polish…expressions and opinions that harm us” and urged them to notify their embassies “of any slander affecting the good reputation of Poland.”

Within Poland, peaceful protesters taking to the streets to express their opposition to historical revisionism have been repeatedly targeted by the police.

On Wednesday, in an act of mass disobedience, more than 40 activists in Warsaw and Wroclaw read out a statement in front of the office of the Regional Prosecutor, describing crimes committed by Poles against Jews during and after the war. After the reading they went inside the building an demanded that they get prosecuted for breaking the Holocaust law. The case is being investigated.

Two weeks ago I was in Hajnówka, a town on the border with Belarus, for a memorial marking the 72nd anniversary of the massacre of over 70 ethnic Belarusians by a battalion of Polish soldiers in 1946. The gathered relatives and supporters of those killed lit candles and talked about the past.

A few hours later, a far-right, xenophobic group, the National Radical Camp, held a rally in the town to celebrate the soldiers who had committed the massacre. They marched through the town chanting “death to the killers of motherland”.

At one point, two women counter-protesters appeared holding a banner that read, “My motherland is humanity”. They were immediately approached by riot policemen who pushed them against a fence, allegedly in order to make sure they did not obstruct a lawful assembly.

The Holocaust law, which has been mainly driven by the ruling Law and Justice Party, is an additional tool for the authorities to suppress dissenting views at a time when it is already increasingly difficult to express political dissent in Poland. Hundreds of cases against peaceful protesters are currently pending in the courts and many more are being investigated by the authorities.

Those who openly challenge the crackdown on judicial independence, undue restrictions on human rights, and the rise of xenophobic far-right nationalist groups are threatened with detention, arrest and prosecution for the peaceful exercise of their human rights, amidst a widespread campaign of demonization in the government-controlled media.

For people like Suszek who dare to stand up for their convictions and raise their voices against hatred, the Holocaust law looks set to silence dissenting opinions. Suszek told me: “Needless to say, this will not change my determination to take the uncomfortable historical truth to the streets and protest against xenophobia, racism, and plain neo-fascism in the public space.”

Suszek’s courage not to be silenced should be welcomed by all who believe in freedom of expression.


In reply to me on this thread wm posted, "Your factless post is basically a slander and needs to be removed." Is this Polish Freedom.of Speech in action here on AHF?

heers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 26 Jul 2020, 08:11, edited 2 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#23

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jul 2020, 07:58

Hi wm,

You post, "..... Britain, France, Germany where the police hunt people posting wrong posts on the Internet."

Can we have a few examples, please?

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#24

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jul 2020, 08:05

Hi wm,

You post:

"The Church was the backbone of the Polish anti-communist movement.
The Church was the backbone of the Solidarity movement, its martyr - Jerzy Popiełuszko, brutally murdered by the communists was actually a priest.
Over 3000 clergymen sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis, over 350 fighting the communists. Thousands were sent to Nazi KLs and to the Gulag."

All that is true; but it doesn't address anything I wrote in my post.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#25

Post by wm » 26 Jul 2020, 10:03

Yes, it did. All Polish independence movements were inherently pro-democratic, and the Church fully supported democracy in Poland.
Your post (about a clear authoritarian tendency in the Church) is factless, ignorant and should be removed.
Just because of it's fact-free nature.

Mark Meechan
Internet censorship in the United Kingdom
Ofcom Set to Become UK Regulator for Internet Censorship
Internet crackdown raises fears for free speech in Britain - it could lead to a North Korean-style censorship regime
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That Time Magazine article is as ignorant as your post and perfectly reflects low standards (politicized or based on click baits) of journalism today. There is so much nonsense there it's mindboggling.

The (few) anti-fascists were mostly Antifa - a modern radical and terrorist organization.

Poland's Holocaust Law was a grassroots effort spearheaded by Polish diaspora, especially by the American Poles.
It was what we the Poles wanted, not merely some "Polish fascists." Do you understand what it means - we the Poles?

The law said:
Whoever claims, publicly and contrary to the facts, that the Polish Nation or the Republic of Poland is responsible or co-responsible for Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich.
And:
No offense is committed if the criminal act specified in clauses 1 and 2 is committed in the course of the one’s artistic or academic activity.

So it's not true that "historians, teachers, journalists" were threatened.

I'm against any all the anti-Holocaust laws (and that one too) but as so many Poles (liberal, conservative, right-wing) I defended it on international forums because of the mass of hate and lies that was deployed against Poland by leftist, especially Jewish media.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#26

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Jul 2020, 11:01

Hi wm,

You continue not to engage with the substance, preferring to sling epithets such as "Antifa" and "ignorant" around.

The Roman Catholic Church is a top down organisation headed by someone who it claims to be infallible. He has supranational authority over his church. Its doctrines are not easily challenged within it. I would suggest that this may prime Roman Catholics to be more accepting of authoritarian government than some others and this may be playing out in the Catholic Slavic countries of Eastern Europe, where several governments seem to be showing authoritarian tendencies. If that is not the case, please explain why?

My original proposition that the political divide across Poland may reflect degrees of religiosity remains unaddressd, let alone answered.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#27

Post by wm » 26 Jul 2020, 11:31

Like almost all organizations on this planet including armies, corporations, small businesses, and governmental bureaucracies the Church a top-down organization - that supports democracy and human rights.

Your original post was about "a clear authoritarian tendency" in Poland and is still fact-free.

All the elections in Poland were free and fair, nobody contested their results ever.

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wm
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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#28

Post by wm » 26 Jul 2020, 14:35

Futurist wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 01:10
Poland might be good when it comes to freedom of speech but it is much worse than the US is in regards to LGBT rights. :(
LGBT people enjoy the same rights as everybody else in Poland.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#29

Post by David Thompson » 26 Jul 2020, 15:26

The topic is "Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results," not present-day politics or undocumented notions. If the subject cannot be discussed rationally and dispassionately, the thread is headed for a padlock.

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Re: Polish pre-WWII borders and elections results.

#30

Post by Futurist » 26 Jul 2020, 22:18

wm wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 14:35
Futurist wrote:
26 Jul 2020, 01:10
Poland might be good when it comes to freedom of speech but it is much worse than the US is in regards to LGBT rights. :(
LGBT people enjoy the same rights as everybody else in Poland.
They can't marry the person that they love or to adopt children together with the person that they love.

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